Invited to an Orthodox wedding for the first (or second or third) time? Scared out of your pants skirt?? Don’t know what to wear, what to bring as a gift, or how to decode the invitation? Hang on tight. I’ll walk you right through the anxiety.
Note: Within the Orthodox community there is a range of expectations and habits surrounding the wedding. I’ll address the kinds of weddings I’m used to attending in my community, and I welcome comments on other kinds of Orthodox weddings that are different from what I describe.
1. WHAT SHOULD I WEAR?
If you are female, this is your first question. Well, it’s probably your first question about everything, but especially here. But even if you are male, you might wonder.
Women: “Is it inappropriate to wear black?” Um, no. In some circles you might even wonder if it’s mandatory. Although color is most definitely making a comeback, you can’t go wrong with basic black.
Not OK is sleeveless clothing, short clothes (you will see most guests covering the knee), and low cut tops (most guests will have collarbones covered). There is a garment you will want to know about. It’s called a “shell.” It’s basically a layering top, but dressy, with a crew neck top and long sleeves, that you can pretty much layer under almost anything you already have in your closet. Lots and lots of your fellow females will be garbed in this wonder invention.
Guys: your basic black dress suit is perfect. Most Orthodox weddings aren’t the tux type. A nice dress tie and you’re good. But y’all have an additional complication: the yarmulke. You should wear a yarmulke to an Orthodox wedding. In theory you can wear any old kind you like, but if you’re the type that wants to fit in, you should leave the satin one at home and find out what kind of yarmulke the crowd wears. Because it’s kind of a statement.
2. WILL THE BRIDE KISS THE GROOM?
Yes, this is a frequently asked question. The answer is yes, but in private. Judaism teaches that our romantic affections ought be reserved for private spaces. Take it or leave it, but you will not see the kiss. Sorry. Hang out at the airport and you will see lots.
3. TO WHAT DEGREE WILL MEN AND WOMEN BE SEPARATE?
Some Orthodox weddings will have completely separate seating. Some with a mechitza (this may be more for the dancing than for the seating, depending on the crowd). Some will have mixed seating, with certain tables “men-only” and some “women-only.” Others will have mixed seating entirely.
All Orthodox chuppahs that I have personally attended are seated separately.
Dancing will always be separate, as it is a feature of Jewish law not to have mixed dancing. However, this can range from with a mechitza to simply separate circles with no mechitza.
4. I’M NOT INTO DANCING. WHAT DO I NEED TO KNOW?
Firstly, no one *has* to dance. It’s a mitzvah to make the bride and groom happy, which is supposed to be the goal of any wedding attendee: to achieve this mitzvah. To that end, some weddings have a circus-like quality to them, with guests juggling, singing special songs, and bringing in all sorts of cute “shtick” – paraphernalia, props, and inside jokes to make the bride and groom laugh. You might also see gymnastic feats, fire-eaters, jump-ropers, or who-knows-what else. It’s really fun.
The dancing itself is your typical hora-style circle dancing with a bit of a twist. The bride/groom/parents usually hover at the center, pulling in close friends and family to whirl around with.
5. WHAT ON EARTH DOES THIS INVITATION MEAN AND WHEN SHOULD I ACTUALLY SHOW UP?
The invitation lists two start times: one for the “kabbalas panim” – when the bride and groom sit, throne-like, and the guests come forward to wish mazel tov. The second time is for the chuppah.
Hint: don’t come at the first listed time. Only you and the photographer will be there. If you want to be on time for the chuppah (some guests come afterwards for the dancing if they can’t come right away – which is fine – it’s kind of casual as far as coming and going when it works for you), consider coming twenty minutes after the first listed time. You will then have time to greet the family and wish mazel tov before the chuppah begins. (Sidebar: you will notice that even non-related guests greet each other with “mazel tov.” Try it, you’ll like it.)
There will be a long break between the chuppah and dancing. This is because the bride and groom adjourn to their private room (see #2) and afterwards take pictures together – this is because many abide by a custom that bride and groom don’t see each other for a week prior to the wedding and thus have not been together to take pictures until after the chuppah. The guests will begin dinner until the bride and groom enter the hall in an explosion of music and dancing.
6. WHAT ABOUT KIDS?
If your kids are not listed on the invitation, but are close to either the bride or groom, it is acceptable to bring them for the kabbalas panim and chuppah only. Then they can go home before dinner.
7. WHY ARE THEY PLAYING THE “ROCKY” THEME SONG AT AN ORTHODOX WEDDING?
Hm. This is a question about Jewish music today, which is kind of beyond the scope of this post. I’ll just say that at most Othodox weddings today, you will NOT hear “hava nagila” and “heveinu shalom aleichem.” That’s reserved for non-Orthodox bnei mitzvah. Orthodox music has “moved on” to include all kinds of eclectic stuff, which you may love or hate. You may think it’s awesome, or reject the fact that it’s Jewish. But that’s what you can expect. (At a wedding I attended last night, one particular instrumental segment contained strains of both “The Brady Bunch” theme song as well as the one from “Gilligan’s Island.”)
8. WHAT WILL THE CHUPPAH BE LIKE?
Very solemn. Hopefully. It’s considered an incredibly holy time. Many guests rise when the bride and groom are walked down, in respect of their role as king and queen for the evening. The sources teach that the divine presence comes down at this moment, and that the gates of heaven open for prayer. The souls of loved ones are believed to be present. You might see guests praying. The bride and groom are often praying, sometimes tearfully, as it’s a personal Yom Kippur for them. It’s about a 20 minute service, mostly in Hebrew. The Aramaic ketubah is read aloud.
9. WHAT’S AN APPROPRIATE GIFT?
I have no idea why, but people don’t bring their gifts to the Orthodox weddings I’ve been to. They either drop them off in advance or after the fact.
While some brides register, many don’t, which leaves you on your own. Checks are always considered appropriate, often in denominations of “chai” – $18. If the couple is moving to Israel, this is your best bet, so they don’t have to shlep anything. Otherwise, household goods, cookbooks, crystal, or Judaica such as kiddush cups. I don’t recommend mezuzah covers, although it seems so intuitive, because most of them are too small to contain a kosher scroll.
Well, now you’re all prepared. Remember that you are doing a mitzvah by attending and don’t forget to have fun. Find a nice Orthodox person and ask all your questions. He or she will most likely be glad to do a little hand-holding!
Mazel tov! What are your experiences with Orthodox weddings?
Related post: Cultural Oddities: Simcha Celebrations
very interesting post.
I seem to attend the same wedding you do, I could totally see your descriptions in front of me.
I disagree partly on the yarmulke chapter, I find that different types of yarmulkes (who don't make statements but others ascribe them unjustly to the wearer) add some welcome colour to otherwise all black décor.
That's how I feel too. But if someone is the type that likes to fit in, as I mentioned, he'd want to blend – because the lone white satin yarmulke in a sea of other mono-types, would stand out.
We heavily based our own wedding guide on this one. Admittedly the focus is more on what's going on and less on the etiquette.
And let me say that I still have unresolved issues with the more right wing Judaic culture's approach to time. Just tell me when I should show up, for heaven's sake – don't make me research the difference between the written and oral tradition for your community!
Hehehe. I think this is pretty funny–but please tell me if it's actually not.
When I went to some C events I appreciated the come-when-you-want attitude. And people were chatting, and leaving, and standing around outside the sanctuary catching up. Much friendlier than what I grew up with.
Is the problem with specifying the 'actual' arrival time in the circles you are talking about in any way related to religious observance? Is it more derived from a "Mediterranean" relaxed attitude toward time? Is it a pragmatic evolution because the service is long and people don't want to stick around the whole time?
I do love the casual, social atmosphere – except at the chuppah. It really bothers me when people chat during the chuppah.
Which part is funny…?
The timing problem is not religious in nature at all. It could be either of the reasons you suggested. I don't really know. Part of it is regional too. East coast time is far worse than midwest time
We've talked a little before about how 'Jewish humor' is something I am proud of, and you (Ruchi) also indicated that a certain kind of humor is to you also Jewish. So I'll parse this one to see if it fits into that rubric. And because I love funny.
Funny elements in my view:
1. Larry begging to be told when he truly needs to be there. I've been there, frustrated with consistently-late friends and always-late-running events. I feel sympathy and also see the conundrum. Other people's small difficulties, especially when I can identify with them, are funny. That sounds like it might be against some element of Jewish or general ethics, but key is that it is a conflict with no grave consequences. It can also help me to laugh at myself in annoying but trivial situations, which is an important survival skill.
2. That he announced it so succinctly as "unresolved issues" is also to me funny because he, to my Freudian-influenced mind, is self-deprecatingly acknowledging that he has psychic conflicts around not-knowing about arrival times. Why "unresolved issues" about arrival times are funny to me (and I thought he was trying to be funny–am I wrong Larry?) is because the phrase suggests it is a matter of deep conflict but about something that is unimportant. The incongruence between "unresolved issues" and the simple question of "just tell me when I should show up" is funny.
3. This one might verge on seeming offensive. I truly don't know, so I'll risk clarifying it and hope it is taken without offense. Where Larry invokes the idea of "researching the difference between written and oral" understandings of what is "on time arrival", that strikes me as funny. I think it is in explicit contrast to "researching the *important* differences between written and oral *Jewish law*". So he's very indirectly affirming that Jewish written and oral *law* is complicated and requires research because it is important–but the difference between written and oral [or casual, customary] *timing* is NOT important, so don't make me figure them out and spend time on that question as I would on a Jewish law issue!
Is that offensive to anyone here? I think it affirms the importance of Jewish law and shows up the silliness of having to worry about what 'on time' means–hence his "unresolved issues" about arrival times are even funnier because they are about something that he himself acknowledges is NOT important.
The more I parse it, the more hilarious I find it. But, ummm, I might be all alone in this. And I recognize that it might seem like comparing Jewish law to on-time customs could be disrespectful, but I think Larry means it precisely as a contrast–on-time customs are NOT important, so don't make me treat my understanding of that with the care that is required for understanding Jewish law matters.
Larry, am I misreading? Others, is it disrespectful?
I adore this close reading, which picked up nearly everything I tried to imply.
1) Re small difficulties: A friend of mine said "When I walk wrong and stub my toe, that's tragedy. When you slip on a banana peel and break your leg, that's comedy".
2) 'Unresolved issues' contained the messages
a) 'it makes me angry to have my time disrespected in this fashion, but it isn't polite for me to display that anger.'
b) All the experienced Jews know how to translate the alleged time to the real time without effort. Each time I have this problem it reminds me again that I'm still a not-completely-at-home immigrant.
c) My subcultural Jewish background is supposed to be Yekkie (German Jews) who are renowned for their punctuality (*). But how can I be on time when I don't know when that is?
Humour was definitely intended, with the rage seething underneath adding little 'pop pop' sounds without harshing the mood.
3) Yes, you caught pretty much everything I meant with the oral vs. written comment.
Incidentally, my first Lakewood wedding I arrived before the bride or the groom, although the photographer was already present. No other guest showed up for a good half an hour.
(*) A classic joke: What do you get when you cross a Yekkie with a Chabadnik? You get someone who is EXACTLY one hour late to everything.
Oh!! I didn't realize your comment was on Larry's comment. Yeah – it was funny, not offensive/sacrilegious (we make jokes like that too, all the time – I guess the line between funny and sacrilegious is hard to gauge sometimes, for an outsider).
Larry, it bugs me to no end. Though I'm not a yekkie by birth, I sure am one by nature. And I love yekkie jokes.
Sbw, you must be a lit major.
Indeed I am. 😉
And I think I'm a Yekkie.
So that's what you, Larry and I have in common!!!
I have heard, from Sefardic cousins of mine, that the reason for arriving late at ANY event with a scheduled time, is to confuse the Satan. Thus, if a wedding is scheduled to begin at 6:30p, the Satan arrives and sees nobody there, he leaves in frustration, allowing the Simcha to proceed without harm.
Annan
I didn't know that Satan was someone that O Jews (or any Jews?) believed in.
SBW: Not Satan, the Satan. Completely different concept, same name. [Ruchi, feel free to strenuously disagree with the following] Unfortunately, overexposure to Christianity along with a widespread lack of emphasis on teaching ordinary Jews theology beyond the basics can result in folk customs that blur the distinction.
The Satan is a job title for a particular angel. The title literally means 'the accuser'. (See the book of Job for one of the places he is clearly visible in the Tanach.) He is not a rebel against Hashem, nor is he evil, He is one of Hashem's servants. His mission is to test people by offering them temptation to turn away from God and the mitzvot. I think of him as an externalized view of the yetzer harah (evil impulse, which also isn't entirely evil.)
You can get a good short view of this perspective, with a bit more Hebrew than either of us is going to be comfortable with, in Toby Katz's post in Avodah
Rabbi Micha Beger relates Rav YB Soloveitchik's amazing view of the book of Job.(The following is lightly edited by me) The Rav places the discussion between the Satan and God in the context of Job's silence at the persecution of the Jews by the Egyptians, as recounted in the Midrash(*). He explains the opening of Iyov as Satan assuming the job of teaching Iyov empathy, and so the book concludes when Iyov davens for his friends.
(*) The Midrash gives Pharaoh 3 advisers at the time of the decision to enslave the Jews. One was Bilaam, who was all for it. One was Yitro, who opposed it and then fled to Midian in fear for his life. And the third was Job, who remained silent and uninvolved.
Annan, that is fascinating. I have never heard a coherent reason offered for "Jewish time."
Larry: agree with every word.
Larry, excellent explanation of the Satan. And fascinating piece of midrash. Thanks!
Are you serious about the juggling/gymnastics? I had no idea!
I am really surprised that Ortho weddings now do all that Rocky-themed musical announcement of the couple. Even the ultra/Haredi (or whichever term is preferred) ones? I am not a fan of this stuff, which has existed at almost all the weddings I've been to (which is less than 5 in my life). Sad that hava negila and so forth are not in style. Were they in style 20-40 yrs ago or is that a Fiddler-on-the-Roof type of myth?
What about the bride's face covering? I've seen pics that look like a heavy bath towel hung over the face, and others that are less opaque and over the whole head. Does this vary among strains of O Judaism?
Guess I'll never go to an O wedding, but I'd be really interested to see it.
Yes, she is serious. I really hope you get to see an Orthodox wedding someday. Crash one if that's what it takes :). They are A LOT of fun indeed.
At one I attended a few weeks ago, the announcement of the couple after their alone time was set to the music of the entrance of our local NFL team onto the football field! Was pretty awesome, if you ask me! I might be observant, but I'm also a dude who loves football, especially our local team! People thought it was great. Don't misunderstand, there is plenty of (mostly?) traditional Jewish music, too, but yeah, my experience is similar to this blog's author: the only time I've heard Hava Nagila by simchas is at non-Orthodox ones (e.g. by own bar-mitzvah would be a case in point.)
Now, I'd love to go to more chassidic weddings! The only chassidic weddings I've attended are Chabad ones. They are very beautiful! At the groom's table before the chuppah the groom will recite a formal chassidic discourse by one of the Chabad rebbes. On the way to the chuppah a very special melody is sung reserved for select holy occasions, this one of them, composed by the first Chabad Rebbe, known as the Baal HaTanya. It's truly haunting and beautiful. At the chuppah I remember the brides' face being entirely covered. Also they will read a letter from the seventh (and last) Chabad Rebbe.
I'd love to go another chassidic wedding outside of Chabad to see what that's like but I guess it won't happen. Problem is, where I live, the only chassidim around are Chabad. Maybe I should follow my own advice to you, and crash one the next time I visit the East Coast coast where there are lots of non-Chabad chassidim, too!
Let's be wedding crashers! The really frum people here who don't see movies probably have no idea where I got that inspiration from, B"H, but one of the greatest comedies of all time is called Wedding Crashers, about two men who've made a hobby and career of doing just that!
Thanks for the info, Joe, and welcome to the blog!
SBW:
In more ultra/Haredi circles you will find less of the non-Jewish infiltration, but the bands definitely have more of a rock sound.
I don't think Hava Nagila was ever an Orthodox song, to be honest. Just guessing. Ditto for Haveinu Shalom Aleichem.
As you surmise, the bride's veil definitely varies depending on your custom/preference. Mine was very sheer, but I regretted in later when I was sobbing under the chuppah and felt that I had no privacy. In more Chassidic or right-wing Orthodox circles you will find more opaque veils for privacy and modesty.
Joe: in Israel it's even more common to crash a wedding, and sometimes for a mitzvah. It would not be uncommon at all for a bunch of yeshiva guys or seminary girls to be asked to attend a wedding of immigrants or needy brides/grooms, just for the dancing, to help liven it up and add joy for the bride and groom.
It's an amazing thing.
SBW: If you're interested, I could email you some pictures from my wedding with a juggler, a clown, and plain old silliness. The nice thing is that you don't even have to be good at these things to do them at a wedding. The idea is to increase the couple's joy, not to give them a professional performance. It's a celebration full of joy and love, and it's sheer delight.
SBW: Given that you're using an alias, if you're interested in seeing pictures and retaining your anonymity you could send Ruchi your email address privately and I could send the pictures to her to be forwarded to you.
Oooooooh, may I join the wedding crashing expedition?
Definitely I want to crash an O wedding!! I would promise to be a low-cost and respectful guest to some needy, friendless couple!! I would work up some kind of act if necessary, I guess…
DG, I guess you are using an alias too! I would love to see your pics! Wait, I can see where this is going…I want to see EVERYONE's pics.
Really? Because I was half kidding! Wow, what a great people we belong to.
Ok. Two offers:
1. If you want to crash an Orthodox wedding, email me or post your location and I will find one in your area. Seriously!
2. If you have pics, email me and I'll post them here!
Or if you don't want them on the web I will make them available to others via email.
מי כעמך ישראל, גוי אחד בארץ
Who is like Your people Israel, one unified nation?
דברי הימים א' י"ז:כ"א; I Chronicles 17:21 (is that right way to say it?)
You guys out there are great, and thanks as always to R. Koval for starting the ball rolling.
I haven't been to a chassunah (wedding)in a month, and now all those wedding tears are coming out. May we merit many more, and to continue to revel in the unity of our nation.
Thanks YP! Do we know you??
Incidentally, in Israel people do bring gifts to Orthodox weddings. There's a big thingamahoojie to pile them into. It definitely makes things easier, especially if you don't live near the couple, although I have heard of occasional thefts of gifts at weddings. (There's a locked box to slip gifts of money into.)
Really?? Cool. I've never seen that. The weddings I've been to in Israel are so casual, you might not even know you were at a wedding if you didn't catch a glimpse of the white dress.
Thingamahoojie. I'm going to have that added to my vocab list.
Need a note on food, particularly before the chupah. I've seen individuals at their first Orthodox wedding completely blown away by the smorg tables (depending on the nature of the families involved). The Israeli casualness in some circles is also unexpected to many American cousins.
Is that unique to Orthodox weddings?
Definitely. Non-Jewish weddings consist of a ceremony followed by a reception. Might just be cocktails and finger food, or it might be a full sit-down dinner. But the idea of a pre-ceremony reception (which sometimes includes enough food to feed a village) followed by mingling time with finger food followed by a full sit-down dinner is unique to O weddings.
Hmm. Live and learn.
Although here in Cleveland, a pastry-and-drinks appetizer session is not uncommon. (As opposed to hot dishes, servers, etc.)
Do they have a bar at Orthodox weddings?
At the more elaborate ones, yes.
Update: I just added a video to the post of what kind of circus-like feats you might see!
Wild performance. So where did that one guy in that video–who did not at first glance look like he has the build of a gymnast–learn those amazing flips??
I see a couple of little girls and some women at the back. Does this count as 'mixed dancing' or is the crowd self-segregating? Would the women have their own circle of clowning (harder to do in a skirt)?
Good question! I don't know!
This part of the dancing is when the bride and some family members come into the men's side and dance for both bride and groom. The little girl is likely her/his sister or niece. Notice the dancing wasn't mixed, only the audience was.
Yes, the women would have their own circle of dancing with their own brand of clowning (less gymnastic due to the dress clothes ;).
Wow- Ruchi thanks for a great informative article! I appreciated the info, especially the gift bit – "chai" – $18 checks!:) So excited to be at my first O-wedding – I plan to wear comfy shoes with my modest dress, and dance A LOT!!!
Awesome!!
The guy doing the flips is doing capoeira – here's an example of it in its more normal setting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqZttIoPofs
The clothing definitely gets in the way of women doing gymnastics…. or capoeira!
Very cool! Thanks. Never heard of capoeira, and guessing the guy in the video never did either 🙂
I've been training capoeira for 14 years. There were a few teens in black velvet kippot and tzitzit who trained with us in Jerusalem, and I know at least one capoeira master's son (from California) became Ba'al Teshuvah. He's doing some of the showier aspects of it, rather than the effective martial arts part, except for a few kicks for transitions. Do you also have blog posts on sports participation in the orthodox world?
Over this weekend I have heard about Brazilian martial arts three times. Weird, since I never heard of it before. Apparently, this is a trend I've been unaware of 🙂
Here's a post that includes some thoughts on Orthodox sports, in a very tangential way. Have you heard of Tamir Goodman?
http://outoftheorthobox.blogspot.com/2012/05/birthdays-valentines-day-and.html
I work at a basketball-obsessed university, so I heard of him when he turned down Maryland for religious reasons. I'm more interested/ concerned by the lack of athleticism and physical activity in general in the adult Jewish community – not at the elite level, but at the normal person level. It's so unhealthy.
Do you mean athleticism or physical activity (like exercise)? They're not really the same. Also, do you mean men or women?
I'd say both… and both. And I do realize that this has gone far afield from the Orthodox weddings topic. Sorry.
That's OK. The best conversations here are sometimes the digressions.
So as far as athleticism, I agree, though there are exceptions. As far as exercise, I disagree with the women but agree with the men. Yes, it is unhealthy. I'm not going to defend not taking care of your body, but there are reasons why it's not so simple for Orthodox men to spend time on physical fitness. Even for those that have more time, there's a fine line between taking care of your body and becoming overly concerned with it.
I understand that it is important for Orthodox men to learn, and that they are bound by the time-based commandments, but if emergency, life-threatening situations can justify breaking almost any law, shouldn't they be able to say "avoiding diabetes and other life-style related diseases justifies taking the time to run 3 miles a few days/ week."
There used to be a couple of Reform rabbis in Tucson who would run several mornings a week while discussing (arguing) theology and philosophy. They got a few funny looks when they started yelling at each other about it while running.
I agree with you – and I just love that story.
OutOfTown OOTOB-er has left a new comment on your post "9 FAQ For Your First Orthodox Wedding":
Joe, I had no idea you weren't serious about crashing O-weddings… We Orthodox do it all the time (at least in my community), and you can too! A formal invitation means you can be seated at the meal, otherwise "so-and-so is making a wedding at such-and-such a time" is enough of an invite to show up ;). Actually, since lots of people try to curb wedding expenses by limiting the number of formal invitations, the bride/groom/family themselves will often issue lots of informal/verbal invitations.
Funny story: When my husband and I were looking through the photographer's proofs from our wedding, there was this one guy in a lot of pictures, and I thought he was from HIS side, and he thought the guy was from MY side, and we laughed it off as a wedding crasher… then found out that the guy was the son of my mom's old college friend. The RSVP got lost or something, I never knew they were coming or that they were AT the wedding until much later!
So, in addition to Ruchi's excellent advice above, tips for CRASHING an O-wedding (aka chasuna): When you come in the main door, pause for a minute to scope out which side is mostly men, and which side is mostly ladies. Smile, nod, and say "mazel tov" to everyone. Be respectful, follow "your" gender-crowd, and when you see someone who looks friendly, tell them you have no idea what's going on! You can (mostly) escape from dancing by standing on the sidelines and clapping along with the beat. But if you clap too enthusiastically, you are setting yourself up to get dragged into the circle. If you do get pulled in, just try to step (stomp for the guys) in time with the beat until you can get out of the circle.
These days, practically EVERYONE has non-Orthodox relatives at a wedding/bris/bar mitzvah, and, more and more often, non-Jews as well. Don't worry about slipping up and and blowing your cover – we can tell anyway (from lots of little nuances in your speech and dress) that you aren't really Orthodox, but we appreciate your efforts to try to fit in at our events. The fact that you are trying shows respect for our way of life.
Remember that line "he's is more afraid of you than you are of him"? Yeah, that's us, worrying that WE will make a bad impression on YOU, because what if this is your only real interaction with Orthodoxy and it leaves a bad taste and it will be ALL MY FAULT if you are so turned off & hurt that you never speak to your Orthodox relatives again and leave Judaism and all your worldly possessions to go join a cult somewhere and they turn out to be one of those suicide-pact groups and no-one remembers to water your plants and they all die, too. Also if we are not nice it could make a chillul Hashem (very bad thing we don't EVER want to do).
**DISCLAIMER** All of the above only applies to "out-of-town" O-communities, which basically means anywhere that is not LA, NY, or NJ. Not all O-communities in NY State are "in-town" but as an out-of-town-hick I couldn't begin to tell you how to differentiate.