Dear Son,
I think the time has come for me to have a very important chat with you. See, it’s about being Jewish and your future.
I know it doesn’t seem so, but I want to discuss how very important it is for you to marry Jewish. It’s OK to date any girls, and later, women. But when it’s time to get serious, please… only Jewish women. This is a big deal, son. Don’t let me down.
Dad
Dad,
Not sure how I’ll know till I’m well into the relationship whether it’s “time to get serious.”
Your kid
Dear Son,
If it gets serious, and she’s not Jewish, it’s time to break up.
Dad
Dad.
Seriously?? Is that fair to her? Or even me? Are you trying to say I can string her along until it’s no longer convenient for me? At least give me a good reason to back up your request.
Me
Son,
Life is tough enough. Keep as many things in common as possible.
Dad
Dad.
You and mom are both Jewish and still got divorced.
Son,
There were too many Jews killed in the Holocaust. If you don’t marry Jewish, your kids won’t be Jewish. We need all the Jews we can get.
Dad.
Bad marketing, there. Who wants in with the victim? Blah.
Son,
It’s hard for me to articulate why this is so important. Being Jewish is part of our identity.
Dad,
How so? Twice a year? Grandpa changed our name to sound less Jewish. After my bar mitzvah, we did nothing Jewish most of the year. Shouldn’t true love trump some silly nostalgia?
Son,
Are you trying to tell me something?
Dad,
It’s too late. I’m in this relationship already. It’s part of my identity. Every day… much more than twice a year…
Son…
What could I have done differently?
By the time the parent is writing this sort of letter to the son it is far too late. If you don't make living Jewish the core part of your life the place to focus your attention is on how to keep a Jewish identity within an intermarriage, and to pass that Jewish identity along with your children. The Reform movement has been doing this for nearly 40 years, and the Conservative movement is being to experiment. Hopefully ReformRebbitzen will pop up to share her experiences with us.
Larry,
Whether the conversation happens early or late is less germane that what you said: living Jewish. The vast majority of these conversations are fruitless. The families that are living strong Jewish lives don't have to have these conversations at all.
@Larry: I cannot speak for the movement other than to say that the official position of the movement is to encourage both inclusion AND conversion. Of course, each rabbi and each shul has different rules about how they handle non-Jews in various circumstances.
Here is my only comment on this post: Unless you specifically choose a more insular life in an observant community and limit interactions with non-Jews, you can never guarantee your children will choose a Jewish partner. No matter how observant your home and family life is, if you choose to interact in the secular world as much as you do the Jewish world (such as public schools, integrated activities, secular college, etc), there is always the possibility that your kid will "marry out." Certainly, the more observant and Jewishly involved you are, you reduce the chance, but you cannot eliminate it. Fact of living a Jewish/Secular life. So you cannot always say that the parents "could have done more." Because sometimes that is just not the case.
rebbetzinrocks,
True, you can't guarantee it. However, most parents it happens to could have done more. In the majority of the cases the parents could have done more.
From the Conservative Federation of Jewish Men's Clubs Understanding Intermarriage.
Larry, I just watched this video clip and it sends a nice message of being inclusive, but unfortunately ignores halacha. From my understanding of Conservative Judaism, they don't accept patrinlineal decent, which means that they would in theory welcome an interfaith family that could potentially have the only the father be Jewish. It confuses me that they would put out a video accepting interfaith marriage when the movement itself doesn't accept patrinlenial decent which means they're opening their synagogue to families where some, if not the majority, of the family isn't Jewish.
Good point. Seems inconsistent.
Thanks for linking it Larry. I have another comment, in addition to OOTOB's: the video was decidedly nonspecific about what kinds of keruv it wishes to offer. Aliyas? Synagogue membership? Even the Reform movement won't give an unconverted non-Jew an aliya at shul.
Ruchi, I was Bat Mitzvahed at a Reform Shul and both of my parents had an Aliya, even though my father isn't Jewish. The official temple policy was to not allow an unconverted non-Jew to have an Aliyah, but my mother complain and was able to have both her and my father do the Aliyah. I know this also happened with many other interfaith families at our temple.
Well, that's interesting. I guess exceptions are made.
I have to say, as a convert, the idea of letting a non-Jewish person have an aliyah makes me really uncomfortable. So would handing a non-Jew a tallis or tefillin and telling them to have at it. Not because I think anything less of people who aren't Jewish (I mean, my whole family falls into that category, as did I until relatively recently), but there are some things that are specifically for Jews, and there's no shame in saying so. A Catholic church isn't going to let non-Catholics take communion at their kid's confirmation service just so they don't feel bad. The Episcopal church asks that people who aren't baptized Christians refrain from taking communion, as well. A mosque isn't going to allow someone who isn't Muslim to sing the call to prayer. I don't think a synagogue should be under any obligation to allow non-Jews to partake of certain rituals that are very specifically for Jews. To be more personal, the average Orthodox shul wouldn't consider me Jewish, because my conversion was under Conservative auspices. Much as that might rankle me on occasion, I wouldn't demand that I be given an aliyah or allowed to serve as shaliach tzibbur (well, if I were male) if I made the choice to become involved in an Orthodox community. If I wanted to be fully included, I would convert (again).
Not being able to have an aliyah doesn't mean that a parent can't participate in a kid's bar or bat mitzvah- every bar/bat mitzvah I've ever attended has involved a speech from the parent(s) to or about the kid; have the non-Jewish parent do that, or come up with another way to honor them. Heck, have them open the ark during the service or something like that. But seeing someone who isn't Jewish getting an aliyah, particularly when other non-Jews had previously been told that they couldn't do the same, would really, really rub me the wrong way.
As far as the video, it bothered me that in one shot, they showed a black person in attendance at a service, as if to say, "Look! Here's a non-Jew!" Not a great way to combat the incorrect perception that all Jews are white and Ashkenazi. There was also a scene in which a woman was saying, "So at my bat mitzvah, [her husband] talked about the Haftorah from his Christian perspective!" Again, that seems like it's going a bit overboard. When I'm in shul, I don't really want to hear a Christian perspective on the Haftorah. I can hear the Christian perspective on virtually anything and everything every minute of every day of the rest of the week. I'm aware that that probably sounds a bit harsh, but I think there's a fine line between being more open and welcome of all members of intermarried families and being so open that we just fling our own Jewishness out the window. I'll admit that some of this may be personal bias due to my own decision to convert in spite of the fact that I knew I was cutting my own dating pool by about 97%.
First of all, thanks for your unique perspective and I highly respect your journey and honesty.
I echo your thoughts, but they sound a lot better coming from you. I was equally bothered by that same line in the video.
What a sad conversation the above one is. I agree with Larry that the letter came far too late, the more I think about it the more it seems like making sure your child is committed to marrying Jewish begins at a very young age- making sure they have a positive identify as a Jew and that Judaism is a cornerstone of their life.
In the last post, I was arguing that to a non-believer keeping kosher doesn't have a point, but the more I thought about it one reason for keeping kosher could be to encourage marrying a Jew (the logic would go that if you couldn't eat at your significant other's house the relationship probably wouldn't progress too far).
The book "Why Marry Jewish" explores this topic a lot. I forget who wrote it, but it is an excellent book and I'd recommend that every young single Jewish person read it.
Why would the non-believing child continue to keep kosher if it got in the way of the relationship?
True. I was thinking that if you grew up with some Jewish structure, not having it would feel weird, even if you no longer believed. For example, I have a friend who grew up "Conservadox" and she no longer keeps strict kosher at home and she is no longer Shomer Shabbat. However, she still has a kosher kitchen in her home (will eat dairy out though) and all of her close friends are Jew. She told me that even though she is no longer as observant as when she grew up, she'd never think of marrying a non-Jew. I think what I meant is that if you raise your child with a enough Jewish structure and teaching, even if they become less religious, hopefully there is a good chance they will still marrying a Jewish person (though of course this isn't fool proof).
DG, I think the idea is that if you keep kosher your socialization with non-Jews will be limited enough that you will be appreciably less likely to get romantically involved with them. Indeed, this is one of the reasons given for the rabbinic prohibition against (to simplify greatly) eating food cooked exclusively by gentiles. even if all the ingredients are kosher.
Maybe I'm just basing this on what I've seen myself, but whereas I can see someone insisting on marrying a Jew due to a strong Jewish upbringing, I can't see anyone continuing to keep kosher for that reason. Marriage is a commitment; it's permanent (well, ideally). But having dinner with friends?
I'm imagining that child who grew up in a kosher home without believing God expects him to keep kosher (or even that He exists). He goes to school with secular Jews and non-Jews. His parents would never let him eat at his friends' houses when he was little. By the time he was in high school, he went out for (non-kosher) fast food with his friends and just didn't tell his parents. What was he supposed to do? Sacrifice his social life for something he didn't even believe in? Drive 50 miles after school to the nearest Jewish school and try to find someone he could be friends with just so his parents will approve of his eating at their homes? I can't see it.
And then, yes, he is likely to want to meet someone who isn't Jewish and want to marry her.
…but as the video suggests, if your kid is inevitably socializing with non-kosher kids at school and college, the likelihood of maintaining that kosher standard is quite weak.
Correction: he is likely to meet someone who isn't Jewish and want to marry her.
Not making light of what I know is a very real concern to many, but it can happen the other way around too. Non-Jewish spouses do convert and sometimes become more religious than the born-Jewish partner, and even produce kids that are more religious still…
True! I've seen it happen myself. But this is definitely the exception rather than the rule…and often the Jewish spouse resents it (my non-Jewish wife is turning into my Jewish mother!).
That's actually me. Kind of. I had even gotten pretty far in the process before I knew my now husband, but had a bad experience with my converting rabbi. After we starting dating, I pushed off the idea of conversion both due to the previous experience and because his Grandmother kept saying they only way she'd like me better was if I were Jewish. Harumph. Last year, though, I met a friend who convinced me that not re-pursuing the process just to spite my in-laws wasn't really a solid reason. So…I moved to a new city for grad school and have begun again. My husband was almost disappointingly neutral when I told him. Maybe from surprise, maybe not wanting me to feel pressured in any way. I probably am the more "religious" one, simply because I am learning and constantly immersed in new information. (Grandma still doesn't know)
When I initially read this post on Sunday, I felt pretty indignant, based, I suppose in that frame of reference. Like other commenters, I wonder why these discussion suddenly become so important after years of totally secular family lives.
I'm sorry if my comments don't add much or aren't cohesive. I just remember being so flat out angry that the only time my husband's Jewish identity has been important at all in the past decade has been when I have been tied to it. Ask me about the literature I've been given and lectures I've sat through…all while I knew more–and practiced more–than my husband.
Jamie, welcome to the blog and thanks so much for your viewpoint. I could not agree with you more. Without a solid context of religiosity, this all just smacks of baseless prejudice. I still support marrying in in such cases, but I am bothered by most Jews' inability to answer the question: "why does this suddenly matter?"
To most Jews, does it matter?
Less and less.
I think I may need to sit this one out. I'm married to a non-Jew and feeling like an alien here.
I disagree, SBW. Perhaps you have more valuable insight because of your choices. Without questioning your marriage or your inherently personal choices, the path you've taken is quite relevant. Did your parents have a preference of whether or not you married a Jew? If so, how did they express it? Looking back, can you identify factors that might have changed your perspective?
My daughter just started college, and despite 12 years of day school education and coming from a committed, knowledgeable Orthodox home, it seems that her first crush is on someone who isn't Jewish. I know there is nothing I can do, but it worries me greatly.
I, for one, was really hoping to hear your take on it (unless you're not comfortable discussing it).
Personally, I was wondering more about your own feelings about intermarriage. But again, no pressure.
Is the reason that you are feeling like an alien that the whole notion of endogamy seems somehow 'off' to you? Or are you concerned that the topic of the discussion appears to be how to prevent other marriages like yours, when you think you have a perfectly good marriage thankyouverymuch, and you don't want to offer suggestions on how to prevent other such marriages?
This will be the last question I ask you on this thread unless you choose to respond. If you just want to stay out of the conversation that is a valid choice as well.
Thanks for the respectful questions. I didn't mean my comment as a sulk or a request to be coaxed. Mainly I am reminded reading the thread that for most of you here it IS a given that "marrying Jewish" is a goal in itself. And it isn't for me (obviously), so the whole thread puts me off a bit (not through any unkindness or intention on anyone's part). It is definitely not my goal to promote "Jewish identity or else". And I feel a bit like offering my experience would be interpreted as providing a "bad example" to show parents how to not have their kids end up like me.
Me too, on thinking your input valid.
I tried to respond a little while ago. Don't know if I maybe pushed the wrong button, sorry.
What I wrote was that the tone of the post and most of the responses made me feel like sitting it out because sharing my experience would seem to serve here as a 'bad example' of 'what went wrong' in my case, given how most people on the thread view intermarriage as a tragedy. I don't have that view, and I don't want to try to argue against it in this crowd, and I guess feeling alien is the occasional price of participating in an Orthodox blog! This is not to say there is anything wrong with the thread, but I think I don't belong to it for this reason.
Hm, the sequence of appearance of the comments is incorrect for me, but I'm sure it's followable for others. Larry says it concisely. The ideal of Jewish (or other) endogamy is an interesting issue in philosophical terms. My own life has its ups and downs, but doesn't need to be the object lesson for a discussion on intermarriage.
As an aside, I find your categorization of this blog as "Orthodox" to be kind of interesting. I know that I am Orthodox and the topics are of interest to Orthodoxy, but I am thinking the audience is it is quite mixed. It may be that the Orthodox readers are more comfortable commenting, although I wish that weren't the case.
I'm happy to say it. Even within the context of religion, this looks like prejudice. I guess the only way to excuse it is by emphasizing the continuing of the tradition, etc. But really, I don't think intermarriage ends religious observance and being a child of intermarriage certainly doesn't. Adults are able to work out differences in religious observance and if they can't, it's a comment on the state of the relationship, not on their upbringing. Children follow their own path and separate from parental values.
As a silly example, my teen became a vegetarian after learning about the meat industry in America. The rest of the family enjoys a good steak whenever we can. Her values differ from mine and I expect her to be her own individual.
Another child is going to become a chabad chossid, that is his preference. That really has nothing to do with my values, but everything to do with my acceptance and encouragement of whatever path he chooses.
Whatever, this post is not about me. Sorry. I just think this post fails to take into account the many, many families who have spouses of different faiths and still manage to handle religious issues, as well as their children's development in religion. I'm sure we'll disagree. – MP
Mp, on another post you wrote: I like being sarcastic and snarky and controversial. It makes my discussions more interesting and makes me think deeper about the topic. After all, if you don't care enough to get riled up about an issue, why should I?
This issue (your kids turning away from your faith) is worth a little emotion, no? Can it really be dealt with so placidly?
"Adults are able to work out differences in religious observance and if they can't, it's a comment on the state of the relationship, not on their upbringing."
If your religious observance is theologically meaningless to you, that's true. Then it's just a matter of finding space for your Christmas tree and Chanukah candles. But if your values are derived from your religion and conflict with your spouse's values, then you've got a serious problem. The examples you gave don't seem to involve conflicting values, just disparate ones.
"many families who have spouses of different faiths and still manage to handle religious issues, as well as their children's development in religion."
Do they? Or do they simply not have major religious issues because they care very little about religion? For that matter, calling them "spouses of different faiths" may be inaccurate because they probably don't really have any religious faith.
I am returning to this after thinking about it a lot since yesterday. What I have to say may be insulting in its overall effect, although my attempt is only to describe my reactions. I will completely understand if this comment doesn’t appear on the blogpage.
OOTOB has been interesting and fun for me because I learn a lot about O Judaism and how that life gets lived. Multifarious, controversial intense topics (e.g. what O Jews think of R Jews) are for me the most interesting of all. Probably the matter-of-fact tone, even when people discuss their own strong emotions, has been one key to how those conversations have happened at all.
With this thread I had a different experience. When I read the post and the comments, and saw how the comments evolved and mostly echoed a tone of tragic lament about intermarriage, I felt increasingly a kind of queasiness and distaste. I then found myself shaking my head and rolling my eyes–-at myself. Who did I *think* I was talking to on this blog all this time? These are (mostly) *Orthodox Jews*. The real thing. It was all out there explicitly. Dating only for marriage. Swinging chickens for atonement (ok, sometimes money instead of chickens). Asking their rabbis for all kinds of advice on all kinds of matters. All straight from Moses, no changes. And so forth. Kind of interesting and exotic, but not my world. Not what I want to be, not what I want my kids to be.
Well [I thought to myself annoyedly], you actually already KNEW that for O Jews, and also lots of other Jews, intermarriage is a lamentable tragedy. And of course the kind of Jews who hang around this blog would find intermarriage to be a tragedy. So it is pretty absurd to then be put off by their shared tragic lament. From there my distaste for the tone of tragic lament was compounded by annoyance with myself for being part of the whole thing to begin with.
A silly comparison I thought of would be to a high-school experience when you/someone start/s hanging out with a crowd [imagine some strongly self-identified group: avid pot-smokers, Young Republicans] that you previously had no real dealings with, that your own friends are definitely not friends with, but then it seems sort of interesting and adventurous to inhabit a different world-element in getting to know them. And then after awhile, someone in that new crowd says or does something that is alien and somewhat distasteful to you, that is perfectly in line with what you already pretty much knew about them [way too focused on pot smoking; way too conservative], and then there is a general murmur of assent. And you think, “Oh right. So there is the reason, which I already knew, why I never hung out with this crowd. Duh. What did I expect?”
It’s a very ‘meta’ comment, i.e. not about intermarriage but about my own experience with the blog. It comes off as more petulant than I mean it. I don't mean it as a call for a big conversation or any kind of reconciliatory coaxing, just more as a matter-of-fact report and a way to work out 'out loud' my own reaction.
SBW,
For the past few hours I have been thinking about this comment. I resisted running over to the laptop and responding immediately because I needed to consider what I wanted to say, and frankly, I hoped someone else would respond first (thanks everyone). Also respecting your resistance to a "big conversation." But here I am and here's the brain dump and sorry in advance for making it "meta" – although you yourself admit it is.
My immediate thought was, will you stop reading and commenting here? Will you still want to hang out with "us"? (And I realized, though I hope many more will respond to my "show of hands" post, that the readers appear to be at least 75% Orthodox and at least 15% non-Jewish, so it is an "us" as far as the Orthodox on this blog – my reaction to that is mixed.)
Will you accept us for what we are just as I am happy to accept you for what you are?
Do you think that a Reform or Conservative rabbi or involved Jew doesn't consider intermarriage a negative choice? As far as I can tell, the only difference between the three denominations in this regard (from the leadership) is how to deal after the fact, but not in how to view the choice at the outset.
From a purely selfish perspective, your view and presence is sorely needed here. True, my message is interesting to the Orthodox, and if I can uplift, inspire, educate and unite that demographic, I am grateful – but they, honestly, have access. It's the non-Orthodox readership that I wish would be readers in greater numbers, because it is they (you) that DON'T have access, as you've expressed often. I know from personal experience that you ask the questions many think – but the majority do not comment. Some posts bring the silent readers out the woodwork; most don't.
From a universal perspective, please don't pack up your things and go home. I like you. The same Torah that I love and cherish forbids hurting one another's feelings. I am sick over your queasiness. The whole blog was started to bond us closer. Didn't you love controversy? I guess when it's personal, it hurts.
But from my view, nothing has changed. I know that my non-Orthodox readers do things I consider wrong, whether cheeseburgers, intermarriage, cremation, lashon hara, or going to the beach on Shabbos. We've covered that. I still like you guys. I knew all that. I still consider you brothers and sisters. This is not rhetoric.
We don't usually smoke pot… and as for being a Republican, well, I'll discuss lots of things here, but politics isn't one of them. And even though you don't want my life for your kids, don't you want them to learn to amicably hang out with all types?
SBW, for whatever it's worth, I loved your comment, and I thought it was perfect. It exactly summed up how I occasionally feel when I read OOTOB, as well. When I read thing here that make me feel queasy, to use your word, or hurt, or generally pissed off, I usually take a step back, walk away for a bit and come back to read more when I feel like I'm not going to say something I may regret later. Because hey, it's not my sandbox, Ruchi's clear about just what's on the tin, so to speak, and it wouldn't be any fairer for me to show up here and start demanding that people completely change the way they talk and think about things like intermarriage or conversion or the roles of men and women than it would be for Ruchi to roll up on my blog (which is sorely in need of an update!) and start trying to call the shots. And whatever else it may be, this blog is interesting for me, not in its articulation of Orthodox values, most of which are familiar to me, but in the discussions that happen in the comments section of each post. Anyway, thanks for having the backbone to post that- I don't know that I would have.
I know that my non-Orthodox readers do things I consider wrong, whether cheeseburgers, intermarriage, cremation, lashon hara, or going to the beach on Shabbos. We've covered that. I still like you guys. I knew all that. I still consider you brothers and sisters. This is not rhetoric.
I believe you when you say that, Ruchi, but while I believe that it's not rhetoric, it does sound to me like condescension. I don't think that's deliberate at all, but respectfully, I'm pretty sure that Orthodox people do lots of things that you consider wrong. I mean, lashon hara? C'mon. I think there was a post about this, actually. I haven't met a perfect Jew (or a perfect person, for that matter) yet, no matter how black their hat is or how long their beard is. And when it comes to Adam l'Chaveiro, in my experience, religious observance often isn't the great divider it's made out to be.
I also don't think it's entirely fair to put the onus entirely on SBW for her kids to "learn to amicably hang out with all types." She posted the above comment after a fair amount of prodding to do so. And there's a difference between wanting your kids to be respectful and learn to live with all kinds of people and reading what amounts to an indictment of your very existence. I feel the same way when conversion comes up sometimes (not specifically here, just generally, which isn't a huge shocker with some of the things I've read about converts around the internet). Yeah, it's good to get along and treat each other well, but how do you respond to someone saying, "Your identity and the way you view yourself is false. You're not who you think you are. I've decided that you're this other thing, and I'm assigning you a label accordingly"?
Anyway, this is getting kind of negative, and I don't really like to be Debbie Downer all the time, so I'll knock it off. But as much as I enjoy reading this blog most of the time, I can completely understand where SBW is coming from. On the other hand, no one experiences intellectual or religious growth from locking themselves away in an echo chamber where everyone agrees with them all of the time, either.
SBW: I'm not surprised that you had this reaction. It does come across as a criticism in your situation. But I second Ruchi's hope that you'll stay. I really appreciate and enjoy your comments. You're so interesting, and your ideas are so well thought out. You clearly care about doing good. You seem like a really great person. You're open to and interested in other people's ideas and practices. The blog would definitely suffer from your absence.
I wanted to hear your views on intermarriage not in order to prevent someone else from taking that step, but to understand how you see it. I knew you didn't see a problem with it. And I know that in America today, you're far from alone.
I never thought of this as an Orthodox blog, and I was surprised to read that 75% of the readership was Orthodox. I had actually thought that most people were interested but not Orthodox.
I can understand that you feel unwelcome when some people here disagree with certain choices that you've made. I can imagine myself reacting similarly. But to me, the differing views make it interesting. Sure, I'm opinionated, but that's about issues, not people. And I find opinionated people much more interesting than wishy-washy ones. I tend not to judge other people because I don't have enough facts, and because I know I'm not even close to perfect myself.
Incidentally, despite being Orthodox, I don't swing chickens, I ask rabbis for advice if I have reason to believe they're good at giving advice (a skill that doesn't automatically come with rabbinical ordination), and I don't believe that everything rabbis say comes straight from Moses with no changes.
Btw, sorry about the "reconciliatory coaxing." I'm only saying it because I mean it.
Mp, on another post you wrote: I like being sarcastic and snarky and controversial. It makes my discussions more interesting and makes me think deeper about the topic. After all, if you don't care enough to get riled up about an issue, why should I?
This issue (your kids turning away from your faith) is worth a little emotion, no? Can it really be dealt with so placidly?
That's pretty much the only reason I replied. To get a more in depth dialogue going, as it did.
I do think intermarriage bothers me if it will lead to the disintegration of the Jewish people as a whole and loss of the entire set of traditions. But, from your perspective, the Jewish people are eternal, that will never happen and no one should trouble themselves about this possibility.
As for loss of traditions for individual children- I think that the things that are important to them will stay and those other ones will fall away and there's nothing wrong with that. Religion does not have to be a "package deal" where you accept what you can't stand together with what you love. If my kids end up intermarrying and still enjoy shabbos but end up skipping the whole yom kippur thing, I don't think I'm going to shed any tears over this. Although my husband surely will. – MP
DG- your position is that spouses cannot maintain a relationship if they have different views on issues that are important to them, and that interfaith couples only make it work because they don't care enough about religion? Is that a correct summary of your perspective?
I don't agree here. Couples maintain harmonious relationships all the time, while disagreeing on fundamentals. People figure it out when they disagree about parenting, when they disagree about division of labor, when they disagree about what schools to send their children to, when they disagree about financial issues, when they disagree about intimacy, when they disagree about health, when they disagree about a million other things. I don't see why they can't stay together and make adjustments in religious issues for the sake of the marriage.
I mean, if your perspective was accurate, it wouldn't really matter if the couple was intermarried, right? If one person was orthodox and the other one wasn't, they'd have to split up or else the orthodox one doesn't really care about religion. Do you really believe that? – MP
I feel like I'm playing Truth or Dare.
Diplogeek, I had no idea… but then, how would I have known? That this blog could have hurt anyone is beyond me (maybe I'm naive). I could not agree with you more that what happens in the comments section is far more interesting than what is in the original post. I look at myself as a facilitator above all.
Of *course* Orthodox people do things wrong, and you're right that I've addressed that here, but that wasn't really the subject matter. Whether non-Orthodox people or Orthodox people speak more lashon hara is probably lashon hara, but I had to throw at least one interpersonal mitzvah in there just for balance.
Anyway, your second-to-last paragraph is spot on. I appreciate your pointing it out. And your final point is so true too – for example, while it hasn't been fun for me to read yours and SBW's less-than pleasurable experiences at some points here, it's important for me to know. It's no platitude that I learn so much from all of you. It's the truth. Thanks for reading and contributing, and for continuing to do so even after the queasiness (I really feel bad about that).
Hi all. I am really touched by all these thoughtful words. I am feeling embarrassed about pulling the spotlight onto myself here, so I'll keep it short. "Short" for me I mean.
Ruchi, this was eloquent, totally generous, and really nice to read. I'm not packing up the toys just yet. I have to maybe do like Diplogeek proposes and take a step back, to reimmerse myself in ambivalence, irony and conflictedness, my native psychic and 'spiritual' (using your word) environment. And yes, you are certainly right that is not just O Jews who lament intermarriage. Strongly identified Jews of other stripes do too, albeit in a more Reform-pragmatic way, as Leah indicated. So ok, maybe my problem is with strong Jewish self-identification per se. (In which case it is all the more absurd to post on a mostly-Orthodox blog).
Diplogeek, thanks. It is more helpful to me than you might realize to read that someone else gets queasy. Even someone who actually CHOSE to become a self-identified Jew. I don't get it. But I like not getting it. Intriguing.
DG, I'm really flattered that you appreciate my comments and have such a nice impression of me. I think it is hilarious that you think I'm opinionated (in a good way) because I am actually so wishy-washy. I guess I would have to characterize myself as absolutely and firmly wishy-washy. And one of the things I do enjoy on the blog is seeing how O Jews are actually really different from each other in their views (e.g. Messiah) and practices (chickens are only the beginning).
So let's now please turn the spotlight back to Ruchi and everyone please return to your regularly scheduled sandbox activities.
MP: Don't you think it's important for couples to share basic values? If not, then what is the relationship about? Physical attraction and pleasant company? Nothing more?
I think it's important to share basic values not only so that they can pass those values on to their kids, but for their own relationship as well. Marriage should be a partnership — two people working together toward common goals. And those goals are based on their values. That doesn't mean they can't disagree, but most disagreements aren't over their most fundamental values.
Let's say you and your spouse disagree about where to send your kids to school (to use one of your examples). Presumably, both of you agree that education is important, and all the options would provide a decent education and safe environment. There you're probably disagreeing about emphases (e.g., this one has a warmer atmosphere but that one has better test scores). But what if you knew before you got married that your spouse-to-be wanted to send your future children to a school where the principal was a white supremacist? Or what if your spouse-to-be was planning on dealing drugs in your living room? Would you still get married and say that adults can work out their differences?
Issues can be important to varying degrees. If I were a libertarian and my husband believed in a welfare state, I think we could work that out. If one person is Orthodox and the other one isn't, they are likely to have problems because they will want very different ways of life and will be heading in incompatible directions. I'm not talking about a preference for classical music versus reggae. For that you just have to be considerate. I'm talking about the fundamental principles by which you live your life and on which you base your decisions.
In any case, my response was basically to your suggestion that anyone who objects to intermarriage is immature (i.e., not an "adult"). Personally, I'm opposed to intermarriage for religious reasons, not because of the risk of incompatibility.
Stats update: as of this writing, 52% of my readers identify Orthodox, with an additional 20% not Orthodox but would like to be. 20% identify non-Orthodox, and 8% non-Jewish.
Will respond to more of your comments in the am… Layla tov.
SBW… you make me laugh!
DG: The basic, fundamental value shared by the couple is that religion is overall a good thing and each spouse should be encouraged to follow their preferences.
Your examples of drug dealing or white supremacists are not really good analogies because those are things fundamentally offensive and/or illegal. That's different that just disagreement over religion.
I think a comparison to politics is also limited because that's an abstract topic that doesn't have much to do with daily life, so it's obvious that spouses should be able to disagree respectfully.
I'd like to compare religious differences to finances or parenting- issues that have a daily effect on the household. Couples in good relationships should be able to work out those differences. A husband may take a parenting class to understand his wife's approach better and adjust his own behavior. A wife may forego /delay her financial goals or even career aspirations to allow her husband to pursue his dreams. Spouses move halfway across the country for each other- that's a huge decision affecting every aspect of the other person's life.
I don't understand why the same thing can't be applied to religion. One spouse wants the kids to go a Jewish day school. The other one doesn't want to spend the money, but gives in for the sake of the marriage. One spouse wants to keep a particular level of kashrus, but the other one finds it overly restrictive, so the family doesn't adopt those rules. – MP
MP, I'm surprised you'd use money as a parallel, as it's one of the most potentially volatile issues in a marriage.
Couples in good relationships *should* be able to work out their differences, but sometimes those differences change a relationship from good to bad (not that it cannot be done). Two spouses raised with different religions is a pretty basic difference that is hard to undo, even if you wanted to.
Moving halfway across the country for your spouse is a sacrifice, but it isn't a sacrifice of your principles. Similarly, financial differences are generally a matter of pragmatism: Do we spend more than we earn? Do we save as much as possible for an uncertain future? Again, it's a sacrifice of comfort or security, but not of principles. If you believe that God expects you to keep kosher but your spouse isn't willing, you won't be able to eat in your own house unless you give up your principles. Big difference.
Ruchi: I used finances specifically because it is one of the most potentially volatile issues in a marriage. Of course it is very difficult when a couple has different financial priorities. But they are expected to work it out. No one says to her child: Honey, be sure and date only people who have the same fiscal outlook as you do.
DG: Each of these things is a matter of principle. If I delay my career while I put my husband through medical school, that is me violating my principle that women's ambitions are just as valued as men's. If my husband moves across the country for my job, that is a violation of his principle that it is important for children to be raised near their grandparents/ in a large frum community, etc. If we put our children in a jewish day school and, as a result, my husband can't start his own business, that's a huge sacrifice of his principles of self-employment, etc.
And re: kashrus- again, that's not accurate. If one of the principles that you and your spouse share is that you must support each other's spiritual preferences, of course you work out the kashrus. Here are your pots honey. I won't buy ham.
What no one is saying here, DG, and what is probably a bigger problem is that a sexual relationship with a gentile is not an option within the halachic framework. So yes, if you want to have sex with your spouse, you would likely have to bend on that principle. That's a better example than kashrus, and a complicated question that rabbonim deal with often. Still, is that what you are asking about? Or are you more concerned about the overall freedom of observance in your home? -MP
Mp, if you met someone and you knew going in that you had vastly different viewpoints on *any* major issue, I would say that's a red flag for the ultimate success of the marriage. And I would rank religion way higher than financial styles or outlook – but maybe that's just me 🙂
You keep saying they *should be able to* and *are expected to* work out their differences, but how does that actually bear out in real life when they are of different faiths? Even if they consider themselves areligious, which may work where there are no kids in the picture, raising kids tends to throw a great deal of light on life's most basic religious themes. I've seen it happen.
I was on a teleconference once for Jewish educators across the world, and the discussion was interfaith families. A trend noted by most of us was that women who wanted to be active and affiliated Jewish mothers had a much harder time putting those motivations into practice where their husbands did not identify Jewish.
I agree that the conversation came just too late. My 6 year old daughter summed it up best I think. We were having a conversation about intermarriage in the context of some family situation that had arisen. Whilst my kids were raised orthodox, neither of their parents (i.e. my husband or I) were, we chose this path ourselves, so it's always interesting for us to see how our kids see things since they experience life from a very different perspective to the one we had growing up. Anyway, so the six year old said: "I would never marry a non-Jewish man…. he wouldn't know how to make kiddush on Friday night!". In her little mind part of the very definition of a husband is his role that he would play in the Jewish home. This is something so essential to who she is, she couldn't imagine giving it up. May it always be so!
Aww 🙂
So the question then is: if the Jewish involvement and immersion continues through the high school and post-high school years, it will continue to be that essential. When they're six, it's easy.
It seems to almost be a tautology. If Judaism isn't central and important in your home, it almost certainly won't be central and important in your adult child's home. It's not necessarily a value judgment, but a statement of truth. To echo an earlier parallel, a parent who cares strongly about environmentalism and whose home is a place where things are reused and recycled, excess packaging is eschewed, people bike or walk instead of driving, etc is more likely to have children who make similar choices – and who choose significant others who will support those choices.
And I completely agree with my contemporaries who looked at their parents and said, "my whole childhood and adolescence, Judaism was never important enough for you to NOT go camping on Yom Kippur. Now you want me to marry Jewish… why?"
I think it's more of a catch-22 than a tautology. If you have to have the conversation, if it needs to be said, then the framework that's currently in place is not strong enough to stand on its own, and adding words will be a weak addition to the mix. As Leah said, NEVER is there a guarantee, but one can up the chances significantly – not by words, but by deeds. And YES to your final paragraph.
I think it's interesting that the father writing the letter is okay with his son dating non-jews but not with marrying them. The son points out the folly in this reasoning, that it is silly and unfair to both parties to become involved and serious in a relationship and then break up. My first thought was that the father should have requested (probably much earlier) that the son not even date a non-jew. But then, like the Conservative Rabbi's were saying in their video, friendship and socializing are enough to create a basis for a romantic relationship. So where should the line be drawn? From an Orthodox standpoint, there are halachos prohibiting food prepared by gentiles (bishul akum, yayin akum, chalav akum, etc.) and the primary reason for these laws is to discourage intermarriage. It is interesting to see the contrast of the father drawing a line of "dating seriously" compared to halacha drawing the line of not mingling socially at a meal (or at least making it difficult).
"Where should the line be drawn?" is exactly the question. Where, indeed?
I am Anon from before. While I am not extremely well versed in these halachos, I want to make a correction that I don't think that chalav akum belongs in the same category as bishul akum & yayin akum as from what I understand it stems from different reasons.
I think you're right.
I also was wandering whether I should sit this one out, as I am a child of intermarriage (Jewish dad, Catholic mom).
It isn't an easy situation. I feel very Jewish, yet I know I'm not in the eyes of others. I've been on the fence about converting for ages, because paradoxically, going through with it would seem somewhat as denying the Jewish part in me. I definitely feel jealous of my friends whose moms are Jewish and who therefore can freely chose where they want to be in the observance spectrum, without ever being denied their identity.
In the same time I sometimes feel that this conflicted situation forces me to really question what I believe in, how I identify, and where I belong. Which ultimately is probably a good thing, and makes me more introspective and more thoughtful. It definitely isn't the easiest position though (well, it would be if I didn't care, but I do).
…and which most Jews, children of Jewish parents, never think about as much as you, including why they should or wouldn't marry out. What would you counsel a young Jewish adult regarding interdating and intermarrying?
I don't really know if I could counsel anything. Every situation is very different. I also guess it all depends on the underlying reason of the interdating:
Are comfortable with your Jewishness, attached to your heritage, but it just so happened that you fell in love with someone who isn't Jewish? In that case I guess it's just that things happen, we can't control everything, there are always Romeos and Juliets.
Or is it that you feel burdened by your Jewishness and want to escape it by marrying out?
In the second case (which happens to be the one I personally know) just remember that children can have a way of forcing you back into the very thing you want to forget. My mother told me recently that my father was speaking with an Israeli woman, and she said to him "You're Jewish of course". My father got flustered, but she insisted. So finally he mumbled "Well, my mother was Jewish and my daughter is Jewish, but I'm not". (apparently the woman's eyes just got bigger and bigger…)
I don't know if I'm making myself clear. I guess that what I'm trying to say is that if you think marrying out is the perfect way to leave your Jewishness behind, think again.
And in both cases, you are likely to produce children who will be forced to think and work it out for themselves, with varying degrees of success. Eternal wanderers of sort – oh wait… 🙂
I don't think people are trying to escape Jewishness. Just that it doesn't fall high enough on their scale of priorities, or that the rush of meeting the right one becomes more important. Or that they don't think it enough of a conflict. Or that the person is willing to live Jewishly. I think for many (most?) it's not a DECISION to marry out, so much as it wasn't a DECISION to marry in.
It may depend on where you live. In the past there have been many people who saw being Jewish as a curse, or at least an unfortunate turn of fate. Who went to great lengths to blend in, lose the yiddish accent, change the family name…
I guess this doesn't exist in the US nowadays, but I still know people like that in the Altaltland, including large parts of my family. Remember that as recently as in the 1960's in Eastern Europe people were persecuted and deprived of civic rights because they were Jewish (and I mean simply that they had Jewish origins, not that they were religious)
You're right. I was taking a rather narrow view and thinking of contemporary American trends.
I'm coming to this late, since I haven't had the time to read and respond to your posts in a while, but for some reason while drinking my morning coffee, it felt like a good time to catch up.
I have read the comments and felt my two cents could fit in – is intermarriage and interdating difficult? Yes. Is it a loss? I guess that depends on the circumstance and what happens. In my case, I spent a few years (from 22-25) dating a very nice young man who was the same age. He was interested in Judaism and actually enrolled in a Reform conversion class when we met. His family is Catholic. While he was going through the conversion process and we were dating, he learned a lot about different perspectives of Judaism (mainly Conservative) and I learned a lot about Judaism too, and what I wanted – and from that experience, I made the decision to become more observant, more Orthodox if you will. We broke up after it became clear that ideologically, spiritually, religiously, we were clearly going in different directions, but until then, it looked like the relationship was heading towards marriage. One reason why it ended, aside from the obvious different religious paths we were heading on, was this young man has family in Eastern Europe, who he had suspected were most likely anti-Jewish. He went on a trip to visit them. I asked if he was going to tell them about his conversion. When he returned, he said he had not told them. That was my breaking point – he had worked so hard, and had made his own commitments and to me that action was one of not standing up for his beliefs. I understood the fear of alienation, but I couldn't fathom hiding my Jewishiness (I had also just returned from a March of the Living trip and so persecution was fresh on my mind). So you really never know what will or can happen. On the other hand, my cousin who I would say is extremely committed to her Judaism (is very much so involved in the Conservative movement in our city, goes to shul almost weekly, participates in services by laining) has been involved for about 3 years with a non-Jewish guy. Does it bother the family – yes. Does it bother my frum from birth husband? yes. Does it bother me? Well that depends – I mean I would love to see my cousin marry someone Jewish, but she's Jewish and she's committed and this guy (who has been to our house for Shabbat), describes himself as agnostic and doesn't care about religion and would be happy with her doing anything Jewish in the future. He goes with her to synagogue and can follow the prayers that we say on Friday nights. Good on him. Will he convert? I don't know. Have I spoken to her about the challenges of being involved with someone not Jewish. Yes. It brings up all sorts of issues – because she's Jewish it wouldn't be a Jewish itself question, but it would be a question of how involved, to what extent, and what do you tell children? That's hard. But unlike others, I don't think I can judge. I don't know what their like on their own, not around others. Maybe it'll work out, maybe it won't? Maybe my cousin won't have to come to the realizations I did when I was 25…Maybe their relationship is more secure and they've talked it out more…But only time will tell and that's probably not a satisfactory conclusion to this post, but it's what I got!
H, I really appreciate this input, and it really made me think. I think your story is coming from a perspective of: is it difficult? And if it isn't, it can work. That's sort of like the son reminding his father in the original post that divorce can happen for many reasons. My view of intermarriage is more of a metaphysical one for the individual, as well as (where kids are involved) the question of how will their Judaism be experienced, transmitted and maintained in light of their dual faiths of origin.
MP, I am responding to you here in a new thread because the existing one was getting all tangled with various threads.
You write:
"As for loss of traditions for individual children – I think that the things that are important to them will stay and those other ones will fall away and there's nothing wrong with that. Religion does not have to be a "package deal" where you accept what you can't stand together with what you love."
I think there's a big difference between climbing up and falling down. When a person is climbing up the Judaism ladder, I think your philosophy applies. Slowly accept those things that are meaningful, and take it from there. It's a journey; slow and steady. There's no finish line as it's about the process and the progress.
When you're falling off the wagon, the physics are quite different. When you fall, you fall hard. Slippery slope and other such analogies. I see from personal observations with people I know that having a spouse who is not Jewish and not into Judaism is one of the biggest deterrents to maintaining faith and tradition and passing it along to the next generation: a formidable task in the best of circumstances.
Add to that the religious hardwiring of the non-Jewish spouse, and what that brings into the mix, and all the beloved non-Jewish family members and traditions, even if it's not "religious" or "about God" – and you have a very difficult environment for transmission of the faith in a way that is sustainable down the line.
Yes! Yes! Yes! Ruchi, what you said just now is so close to what I was thinking, but you've put it into words. This post has really made me think for the past few days about why intermarriage bothers me so much, whereas I just take it for granted that lots of Jews don't keep Shabbos. After all, some children of intermarriages are totally committed observant Jews. In the vast majority of cases, though, intermarriage is almost a death knell to any substantial Jewish life in that generation and future generations.
In the vast majority of cases, though, intermarriage is almost a death knell to any substantial Jewish life in that generation and future generations.
But to what extent is that a self-fullfing prophecy? If an intermarried couple encounters hostility when they try to interact with the Jewish community, whether in the context of synagogues, Hebrew Schools, or just being exposed to negative social comments about either intermarriage or non-Jews in general, it wouldn't be surprising that they choose to forget about the Jewish part of the heritage. Efforts such as the FJMC keruv video I linked to above are attempts (and in some cases first attempts that will require revision) at making it easier for intermarried couples to maintain a connection to their Jewish heritage. (The C movement has a problem that they only count matrilineal descent, so in theory they want to be especially welcoming to intermarried couples with kids where the mother is Jewish. We're currently about 5 years in since I predicted the C movement would accept bilateral descent within 20 years – I'm still confident in that prediction.)
A recent survey of intermarried couples in metroBoston, MA showed a retention rate of Jewish involvement much higher than the nationwide average. I hope someone does a followup study to determine what those communities are doing differently so other communities, could, if they choose, imitate them.
Re: When you fall, you fall hard… I agree, but only in those cases where people are running away from religion. Where religion has been toxic to those people, they will drop it like a hot potato. That situation is not really relevant to this conversation. Where religion has not been perceived as toxic, people can always change what they keep or don't keep and it doesn't have to be an all or nothing decision.
It makes sense, doesn't it? If there are beautiful and lovely things about Judaism, and you haven't had horrible experiences with it, why would you slippery slope it all away? Why would you marry a person who didn't see fit to let you worship the way you want?
Larry, I have personally reached out to plenty of interfaith families over the past 14 years. I resist the notion that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. But maybe I'm wrong…
Mp, I'm not taking about running away from religion at all. I'm talking about a very common phenomenon: slow and steady attrition in an environment where active nurturing is not taking place. Death by neglect, basically.
To your final question, it's not that he won't "let you worship" – it's not Czarist Russia. It's America. There are a lot of other pursuits that are going to take priority, and life just gets in the way of observance and ritual.
An open letter to Orthodox and Conservative rabbis
I was under the impression that a "ben yisrael" (halachic status of Jewish father and non-Jewish mother) is not to be discouraged from converting.