Ruchi,
No rush on this…but I’m curious if you can point me to one of your blogs (or someone else’s) to address this issue:
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I’m at the airport today with co-workers, all of whom are very well-educated professionals. Three of us are Jewish, three not (only one male). Somehow the topic of Orthodox Judaism, kosher, etc. comes up and I overhear the other two Jewish people talking. Then the woman says, “Well, I could never be Orthodox because they treat women as second-class citizens.”
Then the guy starts talking about how his mother teaches secular subjects in an Orthodox day school and how before she was allowed to teach, they reviewed her text books and “ripped out most of the pages on Native Americans” because the students weren’t allowed to learn about their lifestyles and/or see pictures of women with their arms uncovered, etc. Both were chuckling about how outrageous these things are.
Well, I’m sitting there trying to figure out whether to say something, and if so, what would I say. I had just met the woman at a meeting the day before, and didn’t want to come off in the wrong way (and my boss was there too).
So, I said, “Well, I study with an Orthodox rabbi and his wife and over the years I’ve learned that Orthodox Judaism really doesn’t feel that way about women. While I know people may have that misconception, it is really not true.” The other woman said, well, maybe I just don’t know enough and we left it at that.
Anyway, long story, but I’m curious – do you have a blog or something that “refreshes” my memory about what I might say in these conversations? Almost like an elevator pitch. While I feel confident in my belief that this view is not accurate, I would love to have a better handle on some good answers. Over the years of learning, I know I’ve heard different answers, in different contexts, but when faced with the situation today, I suddenly felt almost at a loss for words. Or, maybe I shouldn’t say anything?
Any advice?
Dear Elevator,
There are really two questions, as you articulated. One, what are the answers I should have at the edge of my brain and tip of my tongue that, while not the entire answer, is easily exportable to others who don’t have the access that I have to what Orthodox living looks like? Two, when and under what circumstances should I export them? And if I don’t choose to, what else should I do or say in that moment?
The Torah tells us that it’s important to have those answers at our fingertips – mostly for ourselves. When someone mocks a group of people or an idea, and we only have a vague feeling or notion that it’s off, it’s really unsettling. It should be a generalized goal of life to know truth and live by it. Later, we have to decide how much and when to share those ideas with others – especially when negativity is the context.
So let’s first approach The Truth about the things that were said.
Whenever I or my kids are insulted by someone, the first thing we try to do is ask: is it true? Meaning, no one – cultural or religious groups, professionals, irrespective of age – is immune to mistakes. Sometimes the best change comes via unpleasant criticism. What a great opportunity to use it to introspect and see if it’s true, and if so, what we can do about it. In this way our greatest mockers become our best coaches (which is a good form of revenge, incidentally).
The Questions:
1. So, are Orthodox Jews anti-women?
2. And are we insular with regards to learning about other cultures and religions?
3. Are we overly consumed with modesty in Victorian ways?
The Truth:
1. Some individual Orthodox Jews are anti-women, but for that matter, so are some non-Orthodox Jews and some Christians and some Chinese people and some Muslims. A better question is are MOST Orthodox Jews anti-women, or is the RULEBOOK of Orthodox Judaism (the Torah) anti-women?
And I honestly think the answer is NO. Most Orthodox men that I know treat their wives and other women well. The Torah does teach different paths of spiritual fulfillment for men and women, which definitely highlights different public roles, especially in synagogues, but as I’ve written elsewhere, the great mistake is to judge Orthodox Judaism by what goes on in the synagogue, because what goes on in the synagogue is a fraction of what Orthodox Jewish life looks like.
In the home, schools, and family, women play a huge role, and perhaps even a huger role than men. In the Torah as well, we see many instances where husbands are told to listen to their wives in some of the most pivotal decisions to affect the Jewish people, and where the women kept the faith where the men wavered, insuring the continuation as a people.
I’ve noticed a double-standard. Orthodox women are allowed to make fun of men in speeches, but Orthodox men are NEVER allowed to make fun of women in speeches. Hmmm.
2. Insular? Yup. We believe that idolatry, adultery and murder are really, really, bad, so we avoid them in all their forms. If I’m at an IMAX and there’s a scene of an ancient culture worshipping their idols, do you know what I do? I close my eyes. That’s insular. I don’t want to view something I believe is an affront to my God. I want my children learning about Native Americans, but I don’t need them learning about the details of their religion where they conflict with Judaism. All of us are insular, just about different things.
Within the Orthodox world, you’ll see a big spectrum on this too. I doubt the school in question was Modern Orthodox, for example. More insular forms of Orthodoxy will be more likely to censor more strongly – which is good or bad, depending on your orientation. Most people think the religious guy one notch more religious is a fanatic, whereas the guy one notch less is a flake. Welcome to the human condition.
3. Well, that’s a toughie. Who’s to decide what “overly,” what’s “extreme,” and what’s “Victorian”? In the 1950s national TV looked wildly different than it does today. In Namibia, for example, some people barely wear clothing at all. When I see homecoming dresses on Facebook, I blush. And when it comes to the education of our kids in their most formative years, most Orthodox people opt for a more sheltered culture in terms of how much skin they want their kids to see. Public schools deal with where to draw the line, and so do we all. We draw the line in different places, and we all judge each other on our misdrawn lines.
How many times have I held myself back from commenting on the homecoming dress issue (ok, I just killed my streak)? Many, because I know that no one is interested in me judging their kids for being immodest. Just like I don’t want anyone judging me or my kids for being immodest. There are all kinds of reasons why people will draw their lines in various places (literally) – Jewish law being only one of them. But Orthodox Jews, and especially their men and kids, are also really sensitive to what they see – not just to what they look like. Is it possible to see this neutrally? Instead of negatively?
And, the Pitch:
1. “I’ve been fortunate to hang out with a lot of Orthodox people, and, as individuals, I don’t see that they’re any more chauvinistic than anyone else. They do believe that men and women are different, but mostly only in synagogue – at home, school, and play, it’s a really level playing field.”
2. “I’ve been fortunate to hang out with a lot of Orthodox people, and I think the reason they’re kind of insular is because their main goal is to give their kids strong Jewish values, above anything else. So they really try to filter out the noise in attempting this. I guess we all do that in different ways, huh?”
3. “I’ve been fortunate to hang out with a lot of Orthodox people, and I think that they are really into modesty. I mean, we all struggle with where to draw the line in raising our kids, don’t you think? In that we all agree. We should probably try to respect each other’s struggle – we’re kind of all the same boat there. It’s a tough battle.”
The Moment:
Should you say any or all of the above things? Sometimes just knowing them is enough. The barometer is, are they interested and open to what you think about Orthodox people? Will they feel enlightened or annoyed? Expanded or resentful? That’s your call to make. But knowing it for yourself is a really good feeling. Sometimes, that’s all we need. And if the moment does not call for education, feel free to fall back on my favorite parenting word:
“Hm!”
Personally, I think you did a fabulous job.
What would you say?
Lots to say!
On the meta-level: The issue of what/whether to say may or may not be tied to what/whether you expect to have an effect. By speaking up you might merely get these people to realize that they shouldn't speak disrespectfully when they aren't sure of their audience, without changing their views. But to me that's not such a meager effect. Diplomacy counts. (My own converse anecdote was being in a foreign country having drinks with my roommate and some of her acquaintances, and the acquaintances out of nowhere bust out with anti-Semitic views. My roommate was mortified for my sake, I was rather fascinated and didn't say anything because I wanted to hear what "they really think". Later the roommate told them and they were mortified, so they got the "be careful" lesson after the fact.)
If these people have any decency at all, they would likely be embarrassed to realize they had said these things in the company of someone who does not feel the way they do. That probably wouldn't much open them to what you are saying, but a really matter-of-fact, even gentle way of talking might be impressive to them when they realize you could have acted huffily affronted instead.
My own tendency would be jovial irony with a kind of hidden seriousness, as in: "Whooaaaa there, horsey! Let's back up a minute! {smiling} I know there are loonies everywhere, but Jews don't have the corner on THAT market! Here is the story: Mainly Os take the idolatry thing SO seriously that yes, they don't want to see pictures of it. Maybe kind of farfetched to you, buuuuut, let's hear about what you try to avoid your kids seeing–lots of violence? Because you're worried it will A F F E C T them? Yep, same idea, different content, sorta…" Something like that, cheerful and non-defensive. Meanwhile my teen daughter would have rolled her eyes into the back of her head at "Whoooa…"
BTW I heard an O rabbi make fun of women, sort of. He made a joke about the development in Judaism of one-wife-only and added that it was a relief, that one was enough for most men. It could have come off as very offensive, but honestly this guy is so funny and makes fun of himself enough that it didn't offend me.
So I really like your take on why to say something even if it won't "help" – but it only works if like you say, you strike that perfect balance that doesn't engender more negativity. Seriously, I'm cracking up envisioning the teen daughter… been there, done that.
I truly understand the reason for protecting children from the beliefs of others. As a teacher, however, it often seems that when children do not learn about these beliefs, it translates into prejudice of the unknown. I am often shocked by the comments that children make about other cultures (even about other non-Orthodox Jews) and I think if they learned more they would have a better understanding. Maybe closing their eyes isn't the answer.
Anonymous,
Thanks for your comment.
Sigh. I wish every day school could achieve that perfect harmonious compromise between sheltering and exposure. Are public school kids less prejudiced about the unknown? Do you have any other suggestions, other than closing of the eyes, that works?
I think in public schools students learn about other cultures, races and religions and therefore may have more tolerance.
Many times they learn firsthand, because the schools include kids from many cultures.
I wrote a long reply last night on my ipad, and it vanished before I could post. I am at work now, so this will be shorter. I think this touches on one of the themes of Ruchi's last post – racism and bigotry within the Orthodox community. Keeping children so isolated and so intentionally ignorant of other cultures fosters that bigotry and hatred. It is natural to fear and dislike that which is unknown. As someone who is Modern Orthodox, I do not share Ruchi's desire to isolate my children so completely. I didn't hesitate to read them Greek myths as children, or to share information about a range of cultures and religions. I want my children to know what else is out there, and I take the time to explain to them why Torah Judaism is what makes sense to me, why I have chosen this life, and why I hope they will choose it as well. I intentionally send them to a non-Jewish camp so that they meet and interact with non-Jews. (They go to Ortho day schools, so their schools are fairly homogenous.) They learn all that we humans have in common, as well as what makes us Jews different, and they learn the valuable skill of explaining themselves, which they will need as adults in the workplace. I guess I believe that opening their eyes is a better response than closing them.
So, ironically, I don't think of myself as "sheltering my kids so completely." I too deliberately expose my kids to certain things because I think it's healthy for them. Isn't it interesting how each of us thinks we've got the right mix?
Miriam, where would you draw the line, if I may ask? What is for you "too much exposure"?
Ruchi, as you know it is a tough balancing act. I don't think there is a single right mix. Every parent must figure it out for each kid. When I was studying in yeshiva in Israel after high school, one of my teachers told me that my career plan of being an art historian was inappropriate for an O Jew. I thought he was wrong then, and I think he is wrong now. I have studied Christian art, Buddhist art, Hindu art, etc. None in great depth, because they don't interest me particularly, but my life, faith, and practice were not impacted at all by studying these religions and their visual culture.
On the other hand, last year I had a challenging parenting moment when my daughter wanted to spend her vacation visiting a college friend who lived at a Buddhist retreat. I felt that my daughter's Jewish identity had gotten shaky during her first year of college, and I was reluctant for her to spend a week at this Buddhist religious center. I debated long and hard, discussed it with my closest friends, and once again regretted not having a rabbi that I feel close to in my life. (I even thought about emailing you for your input. I also read Jew in the Lotus at that point.) In the end I decided that I had never forbidden her from doing such things in the past, I didn't want to set a precedent of being afraid of her exposure to non-Jewish elements, and that forbidding a 19 year old from doing something was going to damage my relationship with her more than it was going to protect her. I have come to see that although my daughter is drawn to a lot of Buddhist ideas, and at times refers to herself as a Buddhist Jew, her halachic upbringing is part of her core. She keeps Shabbat and kashrut single handedly on a college campus with no other Ortho students. She calls me with halachic questions. The chagim are central to her sense of time and seasons. In the end, she may not identify with a particular Orthodox community, but I am (fairly, bli ayin hara) confident that the primary principles of Torah Judaism will be her comfort zone for life.
So, bottom line, I don't know where to draw the line. I think all any parents can do is try their best and pray a lot!
I see a big difference between Miriam's scenario and Ruchi's. Miriam is concerned that her daughter might be too ATTRACTED to Buddhism, esp. since there is already some of evidence of that. Ruchi closes her eyes and presumably would excise the textbooks but does Ruchi really worry that her kids or herself might be ATTRACTED to Native American practice just by seeing a representation of it?
Also, what's the difference (more Ruchi-style) between seeing a video/picture and reading a description? I can see that if attractiveness or even vividness is a concern that closing the eyes or prohibiting video/pictures make more sense. But would it even be a problem for non-mod-O kids to read something like (I'm making this up, hereby confessing my ignorance), "xxx Native American tribe worshipped several gods, including a, b and c animals"? Or in a similar vein (and in this I'm only slightly less ignorant, so pls forgive): "Roman Catholics believe that Mary was a virgin and the mother of the only Son of God"? The latter is informative without being attractive, in my view. Is it a problem for non-mod-Os to be even exposed to that information? The gorgeous churches in Italy are totally attractive and inspiring, in contrast.
Miriam, thanks for sharing your story. I admire your struggle and journey and agree that you can't forbid a 19-year-old to do pretty much anything. You can advise and guide – that is all. I think that's a big difference too: the age of the child in question.
You are right, SBW, that danger of influence is only one aspect of the equation. To your other point, I wouldn't have books in my house that get specific about other religions' worship. Tangential references to Christmas and Halloween don't bother me. But they do bother other Orthodox Jews.
To avoid confusion, I think Jewish kids should have a solid grounding in their own religion before learning about other religions, especially if the concepts are similar. There's already a problem with American Jews misunderstanding the Torah because they think the English translations of Jewish terms mean what the Christians say they mean. I don't think it's a good idea to give them a Christian perspective on God before they've fully internalized the Jewish one. On the other hand, I would let kids read books that mention celebrations of Christmas. Especially in the US, they can't help hearing about it anyway. You just tell them that it's a holiday that the Christians celebrate, and they're satisfied with that.
Ruchi,apologies in advance: very long post, which I had to chop in two to fit. Part1
A memory, which is on similar lines. I was born but not raised Jewish(nor any other faith or religion…'neither for nor agin', as they say here Im from the west of Scotland, Glasgow; now near Edinburgh….and there was then – in the 60s – a very strong religious divide…..between two strands of Christianity: Protestant and Catholic. Proddy dog, or Catty Lick. Rangers or Celtic(soccer teams). I went to a school which was nominally Protestant ….assembly/sing a hymn in the morning, church service at end of term. Very watery, vague, and to me, then pointless. My first boyfriend, when I was 16, asked me what my religion was….I was taken aback, surprised….what did it matter? I had yet to find out about the in depth Protestant/Catholic stuff. At that time, I was aware I was born Jewish, but I was very much in 'search mode'. Many years later the answer( which had been there all the time, waiting, for me, with infinite patience and love and compassion) came to me. Three years ago, when I was 56. The long wait was so worth it…..)Anyway…the Boyfriend, when I told him I was "Jewish, sort of", said….and this appals me now, not just that he said it, but that I didn't bother about it)that *that* was ok; Jewish was ok. Catholic, and – and here his exact words – "you would not have been allowed to set foot over the door".
We went out for five years; it was not a good relationship…. in the end, *I*broke off with *him*. I had met the man who was to become my husband,
Part 2 next….
Part 2 🙂
my bashert, my lovely love, who beamed up to heaven, five months ago today, the 29th. Last night, I woke suddenly at 3 am, the time he left…)
track back to even younger….I was about six; my Mum had a friend who lived across town, and we went to visit her. The adults were sitting in the living room, drinking tea, and I was put out into the garden to 'play' with the (what seemed to me, an only child, very shy, self conscious) hordes of children out there. I remember being greeted with stares and silence….fair enough, a sudden outsider had just appeared; then one said to me, " Ur ye a Proddy or a Catholic?"….(trans.: "are you a Protestant or a Catholic?"I( who was neither, and hadn't a clue what they were asking, or why) zoomed straight back into the adult zone, and told them what I'd been asked. Great laughter( which did….not…help…me….AT ALL) and I have no memory of what happened next…I suspect I was allowed to stay in the adult zone, just sitting quietly till it was time to go home.My Mums friend, Nina, was a Catholic; all the others there were, too. it wasn't any kind of issue between them. I remember feeling so threatened by that questioning out in the garden. Totally alien way of thinking to me, and also, I should add, to my family; we lived in Glasgow, but were a first generation bunch: we'd fetched up there when my Mothers father was posted there during the war, and just stayed.It's through my maternal grandmother that I am Jewish. I don't know what kind of Jew I am….but I love the story about G-d not asking me about why I wasn't more like Moses( or maybe in my case, Miriam), but asking me why I wasn't ME. Just trying to be me, the best wee Jew I can be. Ongoing health problems, a lot of very painful things to live with( widowed in May, after 34 years – they said it would never last – 21 year age difference, but that meant nothing; we loved one another, deeply….he was the love of my life. Without meaning to sound full of myself, I know it was the same for him.Next month, November 19th is my mothers 3rd yahrzeit: I shall be lighting a battery tea light( as I do on Shabbat) as .i can't use candles. She was burned to death in a House fire, along with her companion, her wee rescue cat, Sunny Boy.The closer it gets, the worse I feel. Not helped by my ( long time) psychiatrist telling me, right at the end of last weeks session, that he was retiring, and I wouldn't be seeing him again( had a Major meltdown/freak out….unsurprisingly. Ruchi, my apologies for such a long comment….it kind of turned into a 'guest post'… I love the fact that you are Orthodox but so willing to talk about all of Judaism in its myriad mosaic. Im just a wee cracked tile in the Great Mosaic….but as my wonderfully helpful favourite singer/poet Leonard Cohen writes…"there is a crack in everything; that's how the light gets in"….( and I have Aspergers, and see and feel some things in colour….my little cracked tile is bright red)Thanks for listening. It helps. A lot. I have no family, and my cats are great listeners but sometimes a human ear is nice…
Crafty, I love your stories about growing up, and this one is now exception. Thank you for sharing it. I was so sorry to hear about your doctor retiring. That is a blow. I'll be thinking of you on November 19.
This comment is only tangentially related, but I was very gratified that our shul rabbi briefly spoke this Shabbos in support of health care workers returning from Africa, saying that they should be treated as heroes and not shunned (obviously, he wasn't making a medical judgment). It's very easy to view other cultures' problems as apart from our own, when in reality, the world is very interconnected now.
"In Africa, people barely wear clothing at all." What are you basing this statement on? Have you met all 1.1 billion people in Africa, and confirmed that all of them wear "barely any clothing at all"? Which countries within Africa have you visited?
Ironically, in a post praising the insularity of the Orthodox community, you shine a light on one of insularity's greatest failings–a lack of understanding of (or appreciation for) people who are different than you.
I haven't had the privilege to travel through Africa, but I base my statement on documentaries, museums, and educational books.
By all means, educate me.
Actually, in the newspaper pictures I see from the Ebola epidemic, all the people are wearing clothing (the women usually in native clothing, the men in more Western dress) and are quite covered up (which doesn' t appear to be protective garb, just normal street wear).
Here is a picture of the Moroccan National Soccer team: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco_national_football_team#mediaviewer/File:Morocco_vs_Niger,_February_09_2011-1.jpg
Here is a picture of Eritreans waiting to go shopping: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/16/world/africa/16eritrea.html?pagewanted=all
Here is a picture of kids in Madagascar: http://www.eaza.net/campaigns/PublishingImages/Madagascar_kids.JPG
(I could go on for a very, very long time)
Shockingly, all of the people pictured seem to be wearing quite a bit of clothing.
Can you point to the specific documentaries, museums, and educational books that are providing you with your perspectives?
Of course I should have said "some people in Africa" instead of generalizing. Thank you.
Please correct the original post. I am still curious as to which people in Africa you are referring to, when you say that some of them wear barely any clothing at all.
Good idea – I will. Google "people in Namibia."
Eliana….is the snarkiness, the sarcasm, really necessary? Ruchi is one if the politest and open women I know, in or out if Orthodox Judaism, in or out if life just generally. I love a good debate/discussion, with a "lets agree to disagree" attitude where necessary: it makes for a much more comfortable and productive atmosphere.
Thanks crafty 🙂 I do agree! One could also ask, is being culturally savvy more important than being nice?
Being nice is more important than being culturally savvy, but I think Eliana was objecting to a major generalization that might not have any basis in truth. The original assertion about how Africans dress was tangential to your post, so I wouldn't have made a big deal about it.
However, I'll bet there are a million people who make a million assertions about Orthodox Jews which you and I would consider inaccurate. Wouldn't you rather that they checked their facts before making such assertions? If OJs are offended by unfounded stereotypes, why wouldn't Africans be equallyoffended?
Yes. That is true. And actually, after I googled "people in Namibia," I googled "Orthodox Jews" to see how accurate that image search is. The first like 100 people look nothing like me (they're all Chassidic men) but they sure are Orthodox Jews and I wouldn't say it's inaccurate.
Right… but because Africa is geographically larger than all the areas where Orthodox Jews live put together, and because there are so many diverse cultures living there, a major generalization is bound to be inaccurate. I guess if your post had said "Namibia" or "many parts of Namibia" no one would have batted an eyelash. We commenters hold bloggers to very high standards, you know 🙂
Oh, my yes! Lesson learned!
Whenever a commenter begins his comment with quote marks around my words, I know I'm in for it!
This is a difficult one for me since I actually think these things *are* problems — status in Jewish law, many aspects of modesty, racism against non-Jews. But this kind of prejudice doesn't target those things. It simply denigrates Orthodox Judaism for not being exactly like the dominant culture.
When Jews say it, they're also saying "I am *not* one of THOSE PEOPLE. I am MODERN. I am NOT LIKE THAT. I am LIKE YOU."
Most of the time, esp. if non-Jews are watching, it's meant to show that the speaker is NOT ETHNIC, at least not in any way that might really matter to the dominant culture.
I do think that other Jews should speak up — in an appropriate, kind, professional way, as you did. First of all, non-Jews have no idea what show they're watching. The speaker thinks she is showing the others there how much she is like them. The non-Jews are thinking "Wow. I thought Jews were supposed to stick together. These people don't even like or support each other."
So my response to this kind of mocking is usually to say "Judaism is an ancient religion and it reflects the reality that women in ancient times needed protection more than they needed freedom. But that doesn't mean that Orthodox men at that time or today disrespect women. Most of the Orthodox women I know are very strong, knowledgeable and vibrant. They have their own forms of spirituality and prayer, even though they don't do everything in the synagogue."
If I had more time, I might say "Most Orthodox women are much more observant than I am, even though I lead prayers, read Torah and train bar mitzvah students. If I could develop the high level of spirituality that they have, it would be a big achievement for me."
The problem is that for many liberal Jews, what happens in the synagogue *is* Judaism. The shul is Jewish, daily life is not Jewish. Jewish is not what you do every day, what you eat, what you wear, what you think about how you greet other people, what you prioritize. It's only what happens in shul. If, in shul, only men can be on the bima, it says to them that Judaism as a whole does not value them as people.
I actually think that halacha does not fully value women as people. But that is a five hour conversation, not a five minute one. In an elevator pitch, the point to make is that having different roles does not mean that women are treated like dirt or seen as second-class by either women or men. Modern secular life is not the yardstick by which all cultures worldwide can be measured. And showing that Jews stick up for other Jews isn't bad either.
While on this topic, I recommend the movie "Arranged" which shows the friendship between an ultra-Orthodox woman and a Muslim women who are both teachers at the school. There is a liberal, Jewish principal at the school and they do a good job of portraying exactly this archetype.
I disagree with many aspects of Orthodox Judaism, and organized religion in general, and I don't think they're divinely inspired, but since I'm still outwardly living the lifestyle I try not to say anything negative unless someone asks me about a specific topic (which hardly ever happens). Also, if it's a factual question, like about kashrus, I'll just answer it, rather than getting into why I don't think the commandment to keep kosher is divine. Obviously! However, I don't always "stick together" with my fellow Jews, especially when my community attempts to organize a bloc vote about a local political issue. I'll always vote (and speak up) based on the issue itself, not what "the community" deems to be correct.
SDK, there are so many things I like about your comment, but this stands out: When Jews say it, they're also saying "I am *not* one of THOSE PEOPLE. I am MODERN. I am NOT LIKE THAT. I am LIKE YOU."
I think that's really insightful. Really curious to check out that movie. Thanks.
Tesyaa, how would you have responded in that airport?
I guess I would have pointed out that Orthodox Jewish women, by and large, do not consider their religious role to be second class, even though it's different than that of men, and that most of them are very happy being Orthodox. Factual but not really stating my own thoughts.
I've been thinking about the "anti-women" issue since reading this post, and it occurs to me that the non-Orthodox tend to look at women's role in the synagogue as a matter of rights, whereas the Orthodox think of it in terms of obligations. For instance, men put on tefillin because they have to, not because they have the right to do so. I have absolutely no desire to put on tefillin because they're not relevant to me. Reading the Torah is a job, not a privilege (even if you happen to enjoy it). Someone has to do it. Being called up to the Torah is often considered an honor, but only because it's sometimes used as one. But say you're the only kohen in the congregation, so you are always called up first. Do you feel honored each time? Probably not. Because it's not intended as an honor. And in synagogues where they bid for these things, it's also not an honor.
I think the rights-based thinking may have a lot to do with the perception that Orthodox Judaism is anti-women if the assumption is that men have the right to do things that women don't have the right to do.
Any thoughts, anyone?
Yes, DG, I agree. There are so many ways to interpret the "women within Orthodox Judaism" issue that I haven't had the time to tackle it here. I think you have spelled out an important different in perspective. And the short answer to the colleague in the airport might be that it is difficult to evaluate a culture from the outside, and that gender roles and divisions are complex in any society.
Being called to the Torah is NOT an honor, really? I have trouble believing this. It might be an obligation as well, but how can it NOT also be an honor? (And bidding??)
It can be an honor, but it's not inherently an honor. For instance, on Simchat Torah many congregations give the aliya for the reading of the end of the Torah, followed by the aliya for the reading of the beginning of the Torah, to people who have contributed a lot to the synagogue during the year. Obviously, that's an honor. Other synagogues give one of those to the rabbi. That, too, is an honor. But I don't see why being the only kohen around should be an honor (and I confirmed this with a kohen who doesn't feel honored in that situation).
And yes, lots of synagogues raise money by auctioning off the aliyot. Personally, I don't like it, but it's been done since long before I was born, so nobody consulted me.
The Torah is, I gather, the most honored "thing" (next to God, who's not a "thing") for Os, and yet being called to it is not an honor? It gets waved around, people kiss it indirectly, people bid to get the aliyah you describe. I can see why a Cohen might not feel so honored if he has to always be up there (maybe some days he just wants to slouch in the back and relax) but isn't the idea that the Cohens are purer, higher, more priestly, something like that? So the connection is between their high status and the Torah's high status, and that sounds to me like it is an honor intrinsically, even if also sometimes a burden.
I can more easily understand, although not accept, Ruchi's sometimes-mentioned idea that different honors are accorded to men and women in OJ, I think she used the words "spheres to shine" or something. But to say it's not an honor to be called to the Torah sounds like bait-and-switch to me.
The reason for calling up a kohen is indeed to honor the members of the priestly class. I meant it more on an individual level. If you're the only option, do you feel honored by being chosen? Also, I'm told that the idea is that people look at the winning bidder with respect because he is donating so much to the synagogue. But maybe he's just the richest, so I'm not all that impressed.
As for the issue of being called to the Torah in general, maybe you're right. It just didn't seem that way to me.
The Hebrew term for being called to the Torah, making a blessing under the chuppah , and other similar actions is "kibbudim", which translates directly to "honors". So.
In light of the halacha that mandates men to be saved first in case of drowning (because they have more commandments to fulfill), it becomes very difficult to argue that halacha values women just as much as men. Halacha has very clear hierarchies and it is not as egalitarian as our feminist society hopes it would be.
but men are obligated to desecrate shabbos and many other mitzvos if necessary in order to save a woman's life. You cannot extrapolate from hypothetical "who takes priority" cases taken out of their original context to make generalized statements about the value of a person.
Yes, men are obligated to desecrate shabbos to save a woman's life. So what? I'm not saying halacha views women's lives as worthless, just as less valuable than male's. And of course we can make general statements about a person's value from who takes priority halachos, why not?