Once upon a time, there was a shul Kiddush. And at this shul Kiddush were both Orthodox
Jews and non-Orthodox Jews. Included on
the Kiddush buffet were gefilte fish, cholent, salads, crackers and dips. Yes, it was a very wonderful Kiddush.
Jews and non-Orthodox Jews. Included on
the Kiddush buffet were gefilte fish, cholent, salads, crackers and dips. Yes, it was a very wonderful Kiddush.
Some of the Jews at the Kiddush had learned of the custom not to eat fish and meat together. Others had not. The wise Rabbi
had not taught it, since it was a custom, and many people at the shul were
driving to shul on Shabbos and eating cheeseburgers and other more obvious
non-Orthodox habits of the sort.
Therefore, he was very selective about which points of Jewish law he
chose to share, so as not to overburden or embarrass his constituents.
One of these Jews, unschooled in the meaning of kosher
altogether, took his fishy plate and proceeded to load up on delicious,
steaming cholent. Another Jew, aware of
the issue, but not quite as sensitive as the Rabbi, and with truly sincere and
good intentions, maybe, honed in on said Jew and proceeded to inform him that
he must use a new plate for the cholent, as the original plate was fishy and
therefore violated the fish/meat combo custom.
altogether, took his fishy plate and proceeded to load up on delicious,
steaming cholent. Another Jew, aware of
the issue, but not quite as sensitive as the Rabbi, and with truly sincere and
good intentions, maybe, honed in on said Jew and proceeded to inform him that
he must use a new plate for the cholent, as the original plate was fishy and
therefore violated the fish/meat combo custom.
The wise Rabbi, observing the debacle from afar, shook his
head in dismay.
head in dismay.
And thus was the term “fishplating” born.
I know about the fish and meat thing, but I've never heard the term "fishplating". Does it mean exactly what I think it means (pre-plating the fish at a kiddush in such a way that you can't reasonably put other (meaty) food on the plate)?
Next term to explore: "bageling".
Actually, my friend made it up and it means "telling other people who know less about Judaism than you do what to do even if they're not ready to hear it and you should just say nothing." 🙂
Love bageling. Agreed!
I like what the Rabbi did. He was trying to not impose on those less observant while still serving the traditional kiddush foods. Good on him for being open and providing food rather than say kiddush and let his constituents go out to eat whatever that may be on Shabbat afternoon. At the very least he knows they had some kosher food on Shabbat (and heard kiddush to boot!). There are many conservative shuls in Toronto that do that – my parents shul is one of them. They serve lunch (although it's parve with crackers, tuna, egg, herring (of course), and salads) so that people hear kiddush in shul, eat and then go home.
While we're on the kashrut issue, I was approached last night by my yoga teacher (not jewish) who asked me about why Jews do not eat meat and milk together and why chicken counts as meat when it is poultry. I had the answer to the second question and for waiting times between milk and meat, she had her own answer for the first. Her answer to her own question: The rules in the bible are rational, there was a lot of bacteria in food in older times because of the lack of refrigeration. So you didn't eat milk and meat together to avoid contamination. I thought it was a great answer and I didn't feel the need to delve into halachic questions and issues about why we don't eat them together in modern times when there aren't quite the same health cross contamination concerns as in older times (she did know the line, don't boil a kid in its mother's milk, which is how the conversation started).
A couple of questions about the fish/meat thing. This is a minhag, right? As opposed to hard and fast halacha? Also, is this an across the board thing in the Orthodox community?
I distinctly remember the meat/fish stuff coming up at Shabbat dinner at Chabad when I was in college. I can't recall off the top of my head whether other frum folks I've eaten by do the same thing or not, though.
As far as kiddush/Shabbos lunch, my Conservative shul back in the States always had a big kiddush after services on Saturday morning- more than enough food there to serve as lunch for everyone. Good memories….
I'm pretty sure that this is halacha and not minhag – I've seen it all over the spectrum of orthodoxy in my travels.
I've never heard of "fishplating" but I like sweetcrunchyjewy's suggestion!
I've never heard of the no fish with meat thing! I have the same question somebody else asked – is this an across-the-board orthodox thing? Or only certain communities? And what's the real custom, can you have fish, wash out your mouth and then eat meat, or do you have to wait a certain amount of time?
Sometimes it blows my mind how little I know. I like your term "fishplating" because this is exactly why I stay away from orthodox communities in general. I *know* I will screw something up and I get really flustered and embarrassed if somebody "corrects" me. It's a bummer because I'm interested in learning these things just because I think they're interesting to know, not because I really want to put them into practice. It's sort of hard to learn much when there's all this pressure, real or imagined.
Oh and I forgot to say – this is why I am loving your blog! There's so much on here that I either had never heard of or didn't know much about before. So thank you for continuing to write. =)
from askmoses.org:
Unlike the prohibition against cooking or eating meat with milk, there is no waiting period between eating meat and fish. Rather, one need only eat or drink something in between to cleanse one’s pallet.
So, while meat and fish may be eaten during one meal, they are served in two separate courses, the plates and cutlery are cleared and the mouths cleansed between courses. Indeed, this is the source for the most agreeable Jewish custom of saying L’chaim on a little bit of shnaps in between the fish and the meat course at the Shabbat meal.
ruchi – I made a little mistake: it's askmoses.com not .org like I wrote before – please edit my prev. post
The source for the prohibition on the mixing of meat and fish is not kashrut. Rather, it is general health regulation, based on the idea that there is some danger (one source says tzarat, which is usually translated as leprosy) from eating the two together.
The custom is close to universally observed among the Orthodox, although historically that may not have been true. For example, Rambam, who as a physician generally ignored Talmudic medical advice, did not codify the prohibition in the Mishneh Torah.
The Conservative Jewish Committee on Jewish Law and Standards approved a teshuvah repealing the prohibition. Their argument was that the prohibition was based on a factual assertion that was not correct, and therefore the ruling could be nullified.
Contrast this with Rav Moshe Feinstein, who (according to a friend of mine) wrote a teshvuah that basically said "We've followed this custom for generation, there is no discernable harm in following the custom, therefore it should still be followed."
Hi everyone,
Interesting how the conversation diverted to the fish-and-meat topic and away from the issue at hand: people "fishplating" others and making them uncomfortable with their knowledge and "superior" observance 🙂
To bring this back to Ruchi's target, when we lived in MA our chabad rabbi would often send us people who were just starting to become observant for advice. The reason was we could make suggestions that he thought were useful, but would not make himself because they involved violations of Jewish law.
For example, we suggested to people who were not yet Shomer Shabbat that they play recorded zemirot during the Friday night meal, to promote a Shabbat atmosphere and more importantly so they could learn the tunes and words for when they visited traditional households. We told them that as they became more observant they would need to stop doing this, but that as beginners they should concentrate on the positive mitzvot of Shabbat (kiddush, candlelighting, haMotzi(*), birkat hamazon(*), oneg Shabbat) and take on the negative mitzvot a little later.
(*) not technically Shabbat mitzvot, but lots of people I know started doing these thing on Shabbat and them moved on to doing them all the time.
Ruchi – thanks for clarifying… my brain is not fully present, because I totally missed the meaning of the word. It's fabulous, though.
The word, I mean. Not the practice – that's just a bit cruel. There must be a better and more discreet way of imparting that kind of information.
So back to the original intention of Ruchi's post (as I procrastinate starting to cook for Shabbos…) — I think that the best way to handle is to be sensitive to a persons background and explain the ruling while modelling/mentoring the preferred route, if that is what the person telling wants to do. It is then up to the person who is receiving the message as to whether or not they want to comply. The most important thing is to be respectful and sensitive.
I don't really believe that there is such a thing as 'superior' observance, although certainly more stringent. For example, I have friends who won't eat everything that I put out (i.e. broccoli) which is fine because I know that I have checked it, soaked it, checked it, soaked it and so on. So I eat it because I know I have followed COR's and my Rabbi's checking advice/guidance to the best of my ability but they'll eat everything else. Ok. Great. We get along just fine and they eat everything else but that dish. Huzzah for slightly different friends!
The other reason why I don't believe in superiority is because some frum from birth (i.e. a very special someone to me) has admitted that they do not know all the 39 melachot but do things as they were brought up/taught. On the other hand, I know a) where our book on keeping shabbos laws is, b) the section that talks about the 39 melachot and c) I can probably tell you if something is following them or not. Is that superior knowledge because I've read it and made sure I know it so I don't break shabbat? No, I don't think so. I learned it because I needed to know how to do things properly so I would do it out of knowledge and not ignorance.
As long as it's about knowledge, respect and sensitivity, I think we'll all be okay. Plus, we should all be life long learners and sometimes us more observant folks need a refresher about how to keep our mitzvot/laws.
There are a LOT of things that I learned about via fishplating, including: what not to wear in Bnei Brak, the need to check dried fruit for bugs, how not to dress a salad on Shabbos, the concept of kol isha, etc. etc. etc. The most memorable one: me in jeans at the Kosel, struggling to figure out where to daven in the siddur. I finally give up and just start talking in my own words to Hashem, eyes closed, very into it, tears rolling down. There's an urgent tap on my shoulder and this old Sephardi lady tells me–with vehement gestures–that I need to uncross my legs while davening because it's disrespectful. LOL! Anyway, whatever seemed too bizarre, I filed away as a quirky cultural thing and and eventually revisited when I became frum…but I never felt embarrassed/insulted. I felt like people were just trying to teach me how to operate in their culture and not stick out; I never felt like people were judging me for not knowing. Frum people are nice, and everything came from a good heart and wanting to help. To tell you the truth, it impressed me a lot–frum people clearly felt that there was a right way and a wrong way to do EVERYTHING, and this intrigued me and made me explore Yiddishkeit more deeply. I was used to a world where how you performed the ordinary minutiae of life was considered unimportant.
Thanks Becca 🙂
Larry and Rena: yes. That is what I've learned as well.
Larry, I love what you wrote about your Rabbi. I think that's a great way to handle things.
Becca and Chana, interesting how you two react differently to the fishplating. Chana, if I woulda been there observing the exchange I probably would've had a major cringe moment – but look how you handled it with class and ultimately learned a lot.
Hilary of course you are right.
I think I was there.
I do think Chana's reaction is the ideal one! I realize my reaction comes from my own insecurities, and I don't really expect others to cater to that.
Scj ur cute!
Becca, I'd probably agree but from my perspective I DO want folks to be sensitive to that, to know that sometimes people feel insecure and to be careful and kind.