I’d like to introduce you to my new friend, Libby S. Libby is a woman, a mother, and wife. She belongs to the Vizhnitz group of Chassidus [Hasidism]. Libby has agreed to open her private life to all of you, in the hopes of helping me reach my goal on this blog: Jewish unity via mutual respect and education. I am really grateful to her for this, and look forward to having you all learn from her life.
Please note that English is not Libby’s first language. Yiddish is her first language. I have added some translations and clarifications in brackets.
I considered closing the comment section on this post, but after checking with Libby and asking some advice of fellow bloggers, chose to leave it open, with heavier moderation than usual. I trust my readership with Libby’s feelings and privacy, and she has made herself available to answer questions or comments.
And…. here’s Libby!
First, I want you to understand that
before I go into the technical details of being Chassidish, you have to know
what Chassidus [Hasidism] is, and what it is based on. Chassidus was founded by the Baal
Shem Tov in the late 1700’s. The foundation of Chassidus is based on improving one’s middos [character traits] of the Eser Sfiros – the ten traits the world was created with. These are Chochmah, Binah, Daas, Chesed,
Gevurah, Tiferes, Netzach, Hod, Yesod, Malchus [wisdom, knowledge, insight, kindness, restraint, harmony, eternity, beauty, foundation, and nobility].
before I go into the technical details of being Chassidish, you have to know
what Chassidus [Hasidism] is, and what it is based on. Chassidus was founded by the Baal
Shem Tov in the late 1700’s. The foundation of Chassidus is based on improving one’s middos [character traits] of the Eser Sfiros – the ten traits the world was created with. These are Chochmah, Binah, Daas, Chesed,
Gevurah, Tiferes, Netzach, Hod, Yesod, Malchus [wisdom, knowledge, insight, kindness, restraint, harmony, eternity, beauty, foundation, and nobility].
These are personalities within each
human being that have to be toiled through to make a person’s neshoma [soul] pure and
holy to reach the potential of his creation. These are based on Kabbalistic
teachings from the Arizal [Rabbi Isaac Luria].
human being that have to be toiled through to make a person’s neshoma [soul] pure and
holy to reach the potential of his creation. These are based on Kabbalistic
teachings from the Arizal [Rabbi Isaac Luria].
In Chassidus you will find that
there is a Rebbe or spiritual leader that guides and teaches his chassidim [followers] how
to attain the goals in tikkun hamaasim [perfection of deeds] that brings them to the heights of cultivating
these middos discussed above. The Rebbe encourages and inspires the chassidim
with teachings from the Torah, Talmud, Kabbalah and Shulchan Urach [Code of Jewish Law]; how to live
a purposeful life and to get closer to Hashem [God] through mitzvos and maasim tovim [good deeds].
there is a Rebbe or spiritual leader that guides and teaches his chassidim [followers] how
to attain the goals in tikkun hamaasim [perfection of deeds] that brings them to the heights of cultivating
these middos discussed above. The Rebbe encourages and inspires the chassidim
with teachings from the Torah, Talmud, Kabbalah and Shulchan Urach [Code of Jewish Law]; how to live
a purposeful life and to get closer to Hashem [God] through mitzvos and maasim tovim [good deeds].
The Baal Shem Tov had 8 great
disciples. These 8 talmidim [students] conveyed the teachings from the Baal Shem Tove in
their own style to their chassidim. Therefore you have today many different
styles of chassidim all striving to do the ratzon Hashem [will of God] through personal
growth in the spirit of our great Chassidic elders.
disciples. These 8 talmidim [students] conveyed the teachings from the Baal Shem Tove in
their own style to their chassidim. Therefore you have today many different
styles of chassidim all striving to do the ratzon Hashem [will of God] through personal
growth in the spirit of our great Chassidic elders.
This was just an introduction so you
understand a little bit of our lifestyle. Now you can appreciate the technical
aspect of how we conduct our day-to-day lives. In reality we are all created
equal. We all strive to raise happy children that are God-fearing Jews and create
a nachas ruach for the Rebono Shel Olam [Master of the Universe] regardless of being chassidish or not.
understand a little bit of our lifestyle. Now you can appreciate the technical
aspect of how we conduct our day-to-day lives. In reality we are all created
equal. We all strive to raise happy children that are God-fearing Jews and create
a nachas ruach for the Rebono Shel Olam [Master of the Universe] regardless of being chassidish or not.
PERSONAL INFO
OOTOB: What is your name?
Libby: Chaya Libby S.OOTOB: Where did you grow up?
Libby: I was born and bred in Monsey, NY.
OOTOB: How old are you?
Libby: I will be 35 in August.OOTOB: Favorite food?
Libby: I love food – my size shows it! Solid
good food. Any food!OOTOB: Do you have talents/hobbies?
good food. Any food!OOTOB: Do you have talents/hobbies?
Libby: I am creative, adventurous, and carefree.
I love to explore nature and history. I am musical. I sing. I write. I love to
learn new things. I am entrepreneurial, owned my own business, and have a knack
for marketing and business development.OOTOB: Where do you live?
I love to explore nature and history. I am musical. I sing. I write. I love to
learn new things. I am entrepreneurial, owned my own business, and have a knack
for marketing and business development.OOTOB: Where do you live?
Libby: Monsey, NY.FAMILY
OOTOB: How many siblings do you have and where do you fit in?
Brothers/sisters? How old?
Libby: I am the oldest of a family of 9. I
have 3 sisters and 5 brothers. My youngest sibling is a sister and she is 13.OOTOB: What did your parents do for a living?
have 3 sisters and 5 brothers. My youngest sibling is a sister and she is 13.OOTOB: What did your parents do for a living?
Libby: My mother was always a stay-at-home
mom and my father was a rebbe/menahel [day school rabbi/principal] in a yeshiva all his years (besides for a
short stint as a factory manager for my grandfather’s business – he was supposed
to take over the operations, but later opted out in favor of chinuch [Jewish education]).OOTOB: How many children do you have? How old/boys or girls? Would you
like to have more?
mom and my father was a rebbe/menahel [day school rabbi/principal] in a yeshiva all his years (besides for a
short stint as a factory manager for my grandfather’s business – he was supposed
to take over the operations, but later opted out in favor of chinuch [Jewish education]).OOTOB: How many children do you have? How old/boys or girls? Would you
like to have more?
Libby: I have 8 children bli ayin hara [may there be no evil eye]. 5
boys and 3 girls: Miriam Bruchy, almost 16; Toivy, almost 14; Tzurty, 12; Moshe Chaim, 10; Gitty, 8; Yoseph Shia, almost 7; Yida Leib, 4;
boys and 3 girls: Miriam Bruchy, almost 16; Toivy, almost 14; Tzurty, 12; Moshe Chaim, 10; Gitty, 8; Yoseph Shia, almost 7; Yida Leib, 4;
Avrohom, 18 months.
Each child is a precious gift from
above. Sometimes I am overwhelmed and
sometimes I take it a day at a time with a more carefree twist. I can say I
have my moods about having more. Sometimes I feel all ready and for it, and
sometimes I am very overwhelmed and panic to think of another pregnancy. Now my feeling and well-being is that if Hashem
wants to give me more children, I will gladly accept.
OOTOB: What do you and your husband do for a living?
Libby: I was in the administrator position
in many different roles when my husband was in kollel [full-time paid Torah study program for married men]: yeshiva administrator, head counselor, school government programs administrator. Then, my husband went into the real estate
industry by selling title insurance. When real estate tanked, I was determined
to help my husband start his own business.We set up a small business on the
national level selling toiletries to the hotel industry and eventually doing
business with Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympics. From conception to success we
worked together beautifully. I was managing the marketing and operations, and
my husband was managing the technical stuff and sales. Unfortunately we had an
investor in the business that didn’t allow us to grow on the scale we wanted
and because of many differences of approach, we sold out our shares. My husband
had a hard time finding a good job in his field. For one year he remained
unemployed (that’s a whole new topic) while I have a clerical job at Aish
Jerusalem Fellowships. Two weeks ago he was finally offered a great job in the
real estate industry again. So B”H [thank God] he has a very good job now and that’s what
we do for a living.
in many different roles when my husband was in kollel [full-time paid Torah study program for married men]: yeshiva administrator, head counselor, school government programs administrator. Then, my husband went into the real estate
industry by selling title insurance. When real estate tanked, I was determined
to help my husband start his own business.We set up a small business on the
national level selling toiletries to the hotel industry and eventually doing
business with Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympics. From conception to success we
worked together beautifully. I was managing the marketing and operations, and
my husband was managing the technical stuff and sales. Unfortunately we had an
investor in the business that didn’t allow us to grow on the scale we wanted
and because of many differences of approach, we sold out our shares. My husband
had a hard time finding a good job in his field. For one year he remained
unemployed (that’s a whole new topic) while I have a clerical job at Aish
Jerusalem Fellowships. Two weeks ago he was finally offered a great job in the
real estate industry again. So B”H [thank God] he has a very good job now and that’s what
we do for a living.
Most Chassidish women are stay-at-home moms and live a very simple life without much luxury or lavishness. They
expect little for themselves and give their heart and soul to their family and
spirituality.MARRIAGE
expect little for themselves and give their heart and soul to their family and
spirituality.MARRIAGE
OOTOB: How old were you and your husband when you got married?
Libby: I was 18 and my husband was 19.OOTOB: How were you set up and how did the dating work?
Libby: We both are born and bred Monsey-ers.
We actually grew up on the same block as young children. The families knew each
other quite well. My mother-in-law gave cake-decorating classes. I took the course at the
time that the shidduch [match] was redt [suggested]. For 3
weeks my parents did their research on the boy. When my parents believed that it
was the right match I met my in-laws and then my future husband at our home. After talking for about an hour to my future husband I was hooked and
ready to marry him. We were engaged the following night.I know it sounds
strange, but somehow, chassidisha girls depend a lot more on their parents’
expertise and they trust that their parents understand what is good for them
and they leave the main decision up to the parents. The official meeting is to
make sure the couple appeals to each other and there is what to love after
marriage. We spoke again after the l’chaim and the vort [engagement celebrations] and we didn’t speak
from after the vort until our wedding 11 months later. In fact, just thinking about my chosson or
seeing him through the cracks in shul, throughout my engagement, made my heart
leap with joy and excitement.
We actually grew up on the same block as young children. The families knew each
other quite well. My mother-in-law gave cake-decorating classes. I took the course at the
time that the shidduch [match] was redt [suggested]. For 3
weeks my parents did their research on the boy. When my parents believed that it
was the right match I met my in-laws and then my future husband at our home. After talking for about an hour to my future husband I was hooked and
ready to marry him. We were engaged the following night.I know it sounds
strange, but somehow, chassidisha girls depend a lot more on their parents’
expertise and they trust that their parents understand what is good for them
and they leave the main decision up to the parents. The official meeting is to
make sure the couple appeals to each other and there is what to love after
marriage. We spoke again after the l’chaim and the vort [engagement celebrations] and we didn’t speak
from after the vort until our wedding 11 months later. In fact, just thinking about my chosson or
seeing him through the cracks in shul, throughout my engagement, made my heart
leap with joy and excitement.
I felt so privileged and so thankful for all the
wonderful things we heard about him. Hashem is mezaveg zevigim [brings couples together] and it is
amazing how my husband is the best person I could have ever wished to marry.
OOTOB: Can you describe what your wedding was like?
Libby: A beautiful event with family and
friends.
friends.
At first was the reception and badeken [custom where groom is danced in to veil his bride]. My chosson [groom], flanked by his father and my father, came to badek me very
solemnly. Then we went outdoors to the chuppah. My mother and my mother-in-law led me to the chuppah. My head and hair were covered completely with an opaque
veil. The chosson is mekadesh [sanctifies the bride] with the ring on the kallah’s [bride’s] finger. The chosson’s
Rosh Yeshiva [dean of his rabbinical school] officiated at the chuppah and
the Rebbe [Grand Rabbi of the Vizhnitz sect] came to say the brachos [blessings].After
the kesubah [reading aloud of the ketubah] and the brachos, the veil is removed from the kallah’s face and the kallah and chosson hold hands and
together walk towards the yichud [private] room. In the yichud room nothing major happens
besides for yichud [being alone together], my new sheitel [wig] is put on, and we eat the meal together and
take some pictures.
solemnly. Then we went outdoors to the chuppah. My mother and my mother-in-law led me to the chuppah. My head and hair were covered completely with an opaque
veil. The chosson is mekadesh [sanctifies the bride] with the ring on the kallah’s [bride’s] finger. The chosson’s
Rosh Yeshiva [dean of his rabbinical school] officiated at the chuppah and
the Rebbe [Grand Rabbi of the Vizhnitz sect] came to say the brachos [blessings].After
the kesubah [reading aloud of the ketubah] and the brachos, the veil is removed from the kallah’s face and the kallah and chosson hold hands and
together walk towards the yichud [private] room. In the yichud room nothing major happens
besides for yichud [being alone together], my new sheitel [wig] is put on, and we eat the meal together and
take some pictures.
Then there is the dancing, women and men separately. After
bentching [Grace After Meals] is the mitzvah tantz [special kabbalistic wedding dance]. The kallah
and women go into the men’s side and there is a badchan [rhyming, Torah-themed musical MC] calling up
uncles, grandfathers, father-in-law, and father to come dance with the kallah with a
gartel [traditional Chassidish belt]. The climax is when the kallah dances with her father holding hands
(without the gartel). It’s a very emotional dance. It signifies the girl leaving her
father’s house and cleaving to her new husband. The epitome of the night is the chosson and kallah dance holding hands. Don’t forget that there isn’t much of a
relationship yet between the two, but this dance physically brings them both
together in a very beautiful and romantic way. This is the story of our
wedding.
OOTOB: How do you and your husband stay connected while raising a busy large family
and with all the community obligations?
and with all the community obligations?
Libby: It is tough. We try to
catch up on each other’s lives during meal times and Shabbos. Sometimes when we
drive to a simcha [wedding/bar mitzvah] in the city it is our time to reconnect and discuss pressing
issues. In the four years we owned our
business we would have daily meetings to discuss business and family issues. We
also traveled together for shows and events which was a nice time to spend
together without the hustle of our noisy life interfering. We don’t just go away on vacation for many
reasons including children, minyanim [the obligation of men to pray three times a day with a minyan], kosher, and [not wishing to overindulge in] materialism.OOTOB: How would you describe how you and your husband share work and parenting
responsibilities?
catch up on each other’s lives during meal times and Shabbos. Sometimes when we
drive to a simcha [wedding/bar mitzvah] in the city it is our time to reconnect and discuss pressing
issues. In the four years we owned our
business we would have daily meetings to discuss business and family issues. We
also traveled together for shows and events which was a nice time to spend
together without the hustle of our noisy life interfering. We don’t just go away on vacation for many
reasons including children, minyanim [the obligation of men to pray three times a day with a minyan], kosher, and [not wishing to overindulge in] materialism.OOTOB: How would you describe how you and your husband share work and parenting
responsibilities?
Libby: My husband helps with bathing and
bedtimes. He does some grocery shopping and other errands. My husband learns
with the boys every Shabbos and helps a lot on Fridays to manage the children’s chores
and cook the cholent.My husband also prepares the Shabbos table and may
sometimes wash dishes and floors if necessary.
I take care of the cooking, baking, laundry and keeping the house in
order. I also do the clothing shopping and most grocery shopping. My daughters also help
a lot with keeping things tidy and helping with the little ones.
bedtimes. He does some grocery shopping and other errands. My husband learns
with the boys every Shabbos and helps a lot on Fridays to manage the children’s chores
and cook the cholent.My husband also prepares the Shabbos table and may
sometimes wash dishes and floors if necessary.
I take care of the cooking, baking, laundry and keeping the house in
order. I also do the clothing shopping and most grocery shopping. My daughters also help
a lot with keeping things tidy and helping with the little ones.
MOTHERHOOD
OOTOB: What is your favorite part of being a mother?
Libby: This is a hard question to answer. I
don’t have any one favorite part. I am grateful that I am a mother. I try my
best to be a good mother. I can’t say I am 100% successful all the time. It’s a
continued challenge.
don’t have any one favorite part. I am grateful that I am a mother. I try my
best to be a good mother. I can’t say I am 100% successful all the time. It’s a
continued challenge.
My children have amazing and unique
personalities. None of them are the same. They each come with different
challenges and success stories. I find that figuring each child out and helping
them along on their own special ways is the most amazing part of being a
mother. I can still use some help… Your services as parenting coach can come in
handy….
personalities. None of them are the same. They each come with different
challenges and success stories. I find that figuring each child out and helping
them along on their own special ways is the most amazing part of being a
mother. I can still use some help… Your services as parenting coach can come in
handy….
OOTOB: 🙂 If a chassidishe woman doesn’t want to be a mother, is that OK?
Libby: Most Chassidisha girls want to be mothers. I would assume that if someone doesn’t there
is a valid emotional or mental reason why she would not want to have children.
It is OK if she discusses it with a Rav [rabbi] or professional. It’s definitely not
the norm.
is a valid emotional or mental reason why she would not want to have children.
It is OK if she discusses it with a Rav [rabbi] or professional. It’s definitely not
the norm.
OOTOB: If a chassidishe woman doesn’t want to have a lot of children, is that OK?
Libby: If having many children interferes
with her health, emotionally, physically and mentally it is mostly OK if she
discusses it with her Rav.
with her health, emotionally, physically and mentally it is mostly OK if she
discusses it with her Rav.
OOTOB: What does your community provide or what systems or services are in
place to make it easier for the women to mother so many children?
place to make it easier for the women to mother so many children?
Libby: There are many services that assist
the new mother. It almost makes me look forward to the next birth. First of
all, the Mother-Baby Homes that are very popular in the tri-state area are a
treat for a new mother. They are lavished with delicious gourmet meals,
luxurious accommodations, and entertainment while socializing with other postpartum
women and mainly, resting. Their newborns are cared for by top-notch nurses
around the clock. Most mothers of large families go away for a week to one of
these facilities and have the time of their lives to rest and to have fun.I
remember one of the Catholic nurses said that when she gives birth she will put
on a snood [cloth head-covering, to impersonate a religious woman] and come here because there is nothing like this out there. There
are also groups of women, usually classmates from school, that make each other
hot lunches for a week postpartum. There
are also chessed [acts of kindness] volunteers that help out mothers of young children with
homework, supper and some cleaning if they are overwhelmed.
the new mother. It almost makes me look forward to the next birth. First of
all, the Mother-Baby Homes that are very popular in the tri-state area are a
treat for a new mother. They are lavished with delicious gourmet meals,
luxurious accommodations, and entertainment while socializing with other postpartum
women and mainly, resting. Their newborns are cared for by top-notch nurses
around the clock. Most mothers of large families go away for a week to one of
these facilities and have the time of their lives to rest and to have fun.I
remember one of the Catholic nurses said that when she gives birth she will put
on a snood [cloth head-covering, to impersonate a religious woman] and come here because there is nothing like this out there. There
are also groups of women, usually classmates from school, that make each other
hot lunches for a week postpartum. There
are also chessed [acts of kindness] volunteers that help out mothers of young children with
homework, supper and some cleaning if they are overwhelmed.
But this is not just for Chassidish
ladies. All Orthodox women use these services.
ladies. All Orthodox women use these services.
DRESS
OOTOB: How does your sect of Chassidism dress that is different from other
Chassidic groups? What is the significance of that?
Libby: We don’t wear clingy clothing thatis revealing, or long and flowing to the floor.
We wear mid-calf length skirts and dresses, no t-shirts, only collared and cuffed tops, or
vests and jackets over long-sleeved shells. We wear opaque tights to cover fully our legs
and feet. Most of us wear beige
pantyhose with a seam in the back to show that these are tights and not
uncovered legs.I was looking at some
pictures of Queen Elizabeth at her Diamond Jubilee and couldn’t get enough of
her dress code being so similar to the way we would dress. No wonder: she is a
Bas Melech [royalty]. We are Bnos Melochim [children of royalty] and we dress like royalty. Tasteful and discreet. No flashy reds and never denim, yet trendy
and cute as you describe it on your
blog. Make-up and fragrance we wear
discreetly in very natural and subtle tones. The majority of us don’t wear any
eye-makeup at all. Some do.
We wear mid-calf length skirts and dresses, no t-shirts, only collared and cuffed tops, or
vests and jackets over long-sleeved shells. We wear opaque tights to cover fully our legs
and feet. Most of us wear beige
pantyhose with a seam in the back to show that these are tights and not
uncovered legs.I was looking at some
pictures of Queen Elizabeth at her Diamond Jubilee and couldn’t get enough of
her dress code being so similar to the way we would dress. No wonder: she is a
Bas Melech [royalty]. We are Bnos Melochim [children of royalty] and we dress like royalty. Tasteful and discreet. No flashy reds and never denim, yet trendy
and cute as you describe it on your
blog. Make-up and fragrance we wear
discreetly in very natural and subtle tones. The majority of us don’t wear any
eye-makeup at all. Some do.
OOTOB: How do the women cover their hair? What is the significance?
Libby: You may not be aware but we shave
our hair completely. These are minhagim [customs] that are based on many reasons. Here
are some reasons: 1) it is based in kabbalah 2) married women shouldn’t have even one
uncovered hair 3) sheilos [questionable situations in Jewish law] that can arise when preparing for mikvah.
our hair completely. These are minhagim [customs] that are based on many reasons. Here
are some reasons: 1) it is based in kabbalah 2) married women shouldn’t have even one
uncovered hair 3) sheilos [questionable situations in Jewish law] that can arise when preparing for mikvah.
In the home, or casually, I wear a
turban or a pre-tied bandanna on my head. When I am dressed I wear a synthetic
sheitel with a scarf-hat to cover most of it. This is our tradition.
turban or a pre-tied bandanna on my head. When I am dressed I wear a synthetic
sheitel with a scarf-hat to cover most of it. This is our tradition.
OOTOB: Is it hard for you and your husband to follow these rules? What’s the
hardest part?
hardest part?
Libby: Not at all. We wouldn’t want it any
other way. My husband appreciates when I look pleasant. I do make sure that my
clothing and accessories are attractive to him, and to him only. Privately for my husband, I will do my face
completely with eye makeup and everything else, but I will never be seen like
that in public, not even in front of my children.
other way. My husband appreciates when I look pleasant. I do make sure that my
clothing and accessories are attractive to him, and to him only. Privately for my husband, I will do my face
completely with eye makeup and everything else, but I will never be seen like
that in public, not even in front of my children.
I am by nature more conservative in
taste so it really isn’t hard for me to dress conservatively.
taste so it really isn’t hard for me to dress conservatively.
The hard part is that we generally
don’t drive. Sometimes women do get heterim [leniencies] to drive, but most women in my sect
don’t drive. I find it very hard and I sometimes feel shackled that I have to
depend on my husband or taxis for my transportation, but that is my mesiras
nefesh [act of self-sacrifice for a higher cause].LEAVING/ENTERING
don’t drive. Sometimes women do get heterim [leniencies] to drive, but most women in my sect
don’t drive. I find it very hard and I sometimes feel shackled that I have to
depend on my husband or taxis for my transportation, but that is my mesiras
nefesh [act of self-sacrifice for a higher cause].LEAVING/ENTERING
OOTOB: If a chassidic person wants to become non-chassidic, is that OK?
Libby: If the reason for his becoming
non-chassidic is for him to grow in Avodas Hashem [his relationship to God] then it is OK. It only becomes not OK when someone is so
confused and they don’t know right from wrong and go completely off the derech [leave the path of Jewish observance].OOTOB: If a non-chassidic person wants to become chassidic, is that OK?
non-chassidic is for him to grow in Avodas Hashem [his relationship to God] then it is OK. It only becomes not OK when someone is so
confused and they don’t know right from wrong and go completely off the derech [leave the path of Jewish observance].OOTOB: If a non-chassidic person wants to become chassidic, is that OK?
Libby: Same thing. Are they doing it to
grow in yiddishkeit [Judaism]? Then it is accepted and welcomed. (My father is not from a
Chassidic home. He is a gevorene
Chossid! [Chassidic newbie!]).RANDOM
grow in yiddishkeit [Judaism]? Then it is accepted and welcomed. (My father is not from a
Chassidic home. He is a gevorene
Chossid! [Chassidic newbie!]).RANDOM
OOTOB: Many people see in the news the degree to which Chassidic men and women wish
to remain separate. Can you explain why?
Libby: First I want to say something about
the media. The secular media in Israel has exploited the idealism of some zealots to categorize their way of life as a way of life for all chareidim [ultra-Orthodox].
Most of these stories were deliberately provocative toward chareidim to make a
good news sensation.
the media. The secular media in Israel has exploited the idealism of some zealots to categorize their way of life as a way of life for all chareidim [ultra-Orthodox].
Most of these stories were deliberately provocative toward chareidim to make a
good news sensation.
Chassidisha girls are raised gender-separate. Besides for her brothers, father, grandfathers and uncles, a girl
around the age of 10 and older doesn’t feel comfortable playing with boys or
having any kind of relationship with boys or men. This is to safeguard her kedusha
[holiness] and prevents her from transgressing serious sins in the future. This has always been a chareidi thing, not
just Chassidic.
around the age of 10 and older doesn’t feel comfortable playing with boys or
having any kind of relationship with boys or men. This is to safeguard her kedusha
[holiness] and prevents her from transgressing serious sins in the future. This has always been a chareidi thing, not
just Chassidic.
You and I know the results of the
breakdown of all moral values within the general population due to lack of
tznius [modesty] and separation.
breakdown of all moral values within the general population due to lack of
tznius [modesty] and separation.
I also want to add to your feminism
topics you write on your blog. Feminism, in my opinion, is for a woman to want
to be, act and behave like a woman, not like a man. Wanting to be equal to a man is masculine in
my view. Being discreet, modest and
ladylike is a feminine thing. That is the beauty and feminism of a Chassidic
women. She will not mingle with the men, or wish to express herself, or show
her talent, equal to her male counterparts.
topics you write on your blog. Feminism, in my opinion, is for a woman to want
to be, act and behave like a woman, not like a man. Wanting to be equal to a man is masculine in
my view. Being discreet, modest and
ladylike is a feminine thing. That is the beauty and feminism of a Chassidic
women. She will not mingle with the men, or wish to express herself, or show
her talent, equal to her male counterparts.
OOTOB: What is your favorite part of being Chassidish?
Libby: The spirituality and simplicity are
a warm combination.
a warm combination.
OOTOB: Which part would you change?
Libby: With our rich heritage and tradition,
Chassidic girls and women are not confident or proud enough. The general public
looks at Chassidim with distrust and disdain from misunderstanding our way of
life. If I would have the ability to pump more pride and confidence in the
youth so they can stand up for themselves in the big world out there instead of
shrinking back, I would change that. A little bit of assertiveness can help.Although I am very chassidish, I am more open-minded and worldly than many
chassidisha women. Therefore, I took the courage to accept this interview
invitation. Most people I know wouldn’t have agreed to answer your questions.
Chassidic girls and women are not confident or proud enough. The general public
looks at Chassidim with distrust and disdain from misunderstanding our way of
life. If I would have the ability to pump more pride and confidence in the
youth so they can stand up for themselves in the big world out there instead of
shrinking back, I would change that. A little bit of assertiveness can help.Although I am very chassidish, I am more open-minded and worldly than many
chassidisha women. Therefore, I took the courage to accept this interview
invitation. Most people I know wouldn’t have agreed to answer your questions.
OOTOB: I know. I really appreciate that, and I’m sure my readers do, too.
TECHNICALITIES
OOTOB: Is it hard for people to make ends meet with such large families?
Libby: It is a struggle.
OOTOB: Does your community have any special services to help with the financial
aspect?
aspect?
Libby: There are lots of organizations that
help out the needy with food, money, clothing, and the like. Most people have
their safety net of how they get by the month and don’t have to rely on hand-outs. For those that do, the services are there.
help out the needy with food, money, clothing, and the like. Most people have
their safety net of how they get by the month and don’t have to rely on hand-outs. For those that do, the services are there.
OOTOB: What other ways do people manage with the financial burden?
Libby: Many Chassidic men and women are
small business owners and bring home really decent earnings. For those that have
simpler jobs, they may have support from their parents. Others may have to rely on government
assistance.OOTOB: At what age do the husbands work?
small business owners and bring home really decent earnings. For those that have
simpler jobs, they may have support from their parents. Others may have to rely on government
assistance.OOTOB: At what age do the husbands work?
Libby: When they are ready to join the
workforce. Many men learn in kollel full-time a considerable number of years.
When the situation makes it necessary for them to bring in a regular income,
they will go find a job or take career training courses like computer
programming, accounting, business management, special education, and other
courses available for the frum [religious] community. These courses are gender-separate and
are held in community centers as opposed to colleges.
workforce. Many men learn in kollel full-time a considerable number of years.
When the situation makes it necessary for them to bring in a regular income,
they will go find a job or take career training courses like computer
programming, accounting, business management, special education, and other
courses available for the frum [religious] community. These courses are gender-separate and
are held in community centers as opposed to colleges.
OOTOB: What kind of jobs do they get without the benefit
of a college degree?
of a college degree?
Libby: Teachers, clergy, managers, warehouse and manufacturing, construction, accountants, business owners etc…***
I’d like to end with something I was reading in the
Hamodia [Orthodox newspaper] of last week. It is an analysis on the results of a UJA Federation
study of 2011 that just came out. The study talks a lot about the explosive
growth of the Orthodox community in the greater New York Area. While the UJA
paints a bleak picture of the Ultra-Orthodox about their education systems,
support of Israel, and poverty, Rabbi Aaron Twerski [a Orthodox rabbi] writes that “we must invite
them to our communities so they can understand that we are not an other-worldly
cult. The overwhelming majority of chareidim are engaged in commerce and work
hard to support their families and the institutions that service them.”
Dr. Chaim Waxman suggested in his
analysis “there might yet be place for common ground between the UJA and the Orthodox communities if we focus on problems that cut across religious
identities.”
analysis “there might yet be place for common ground between the UJA and the Orthodox communities if we focus on problems that cut across religious
identities.”
We must focus on the things that
unite us, not what sets us apart. I found this interview to focus on what sets
us apart. We Chassidic women and mothers face the same challenges as our
non-hasidic counterparts on issues of raising children, education, making a
living, giving to society, taking care of elderly parents, keeping house, continued
education, supporting worthy causes, and building a great
future for mankind.[This was for me, Ruchi]: I would love to follow up with a phone conversation to
clear away some of the stigmas attached to ultra-Orthodox or Chassidim. Please
call me at [and here Libby gave me her phone number] evenings.
unite us, not what sets us apart. I found this interview to focus on what sets
us apart. We Chassidic women and mothers face the same challenges as our
non-hasidic counterparts on issues of raising children, education, making a
living, giving to society, taking care of elderly parents, keeping house, continued
education, supporting worthy causes, and building a great
future for mankind.[This was for me, Ruchi]: I would love to follow up with a phone conversation to
clear away some of the stigmas attached to ultra-Orthodox or Chassidim. Please
call me at [and here Libby gave me her phone number] evenings.
OOTOB: Thank you so much, Libby, for your candor and willingness to open a door that will hopefully lead the way to more unity and more understanding. I really am so grateful and enjoyed learning all about you.
Thanks, to my readership, for earning your trust with Libby’s story. I look forward to your questions, observations, and comments.
Hi Ruchi –
Kudos on the in-depth interview. I learned things I did not know and was surprised by both the differences in our communities (women not being encouraged to drive) and some of the underlying sameness (parenting hopes and struggles). You asked great questions. If you do a follow up, I would be interesting in hearing about Libby's experience as a businesswoman in a community of mostly stay-at-home moms. Did her peers understand her decision to work? Did she take any heat for it? Thanks for shedding some light on an interesting subject, and please thank Libby for me as well.
My decision to work was at first to help my husband learn more Torah and to be able to put food on the table. Later on, when we started our business, my husband needed my help and I was happy to help him. Most women in my family are special ed teachers and they also work. As a businesswomen, I was different from my peers, but I knew I did the right thing. Some woman need to work out of the home and it is understood and accepted. My friends pitied me that I am juggling both, mothering and business. It is not always easy.
I'm curious to hear about the use of secular media in Libby's home. For example, she speaks of reading your blog. How does she access the internet and how often? How about her kids and husband? What about newspapers, radio, smartphones, secular books, etc.?
Also, what are acceptable forms of entertainment and recreation for her and her children? Sports? Electronic toys?
Ayelet. Generally there is no secular media in my house. I occasionally buy the Hamodia newspaper which is an orthodox paper to read about current events and to keep me in the loop with community events. We don't have television and we don't listen to the radio. I don't have a smartphone and I don't read secular books. I work at home sometimes because I have a job that requires me putting in extra hours. The internet on my laptop computer is filtered and only accessible with a wireless modem which I keep in my pocketbook so my kids should not use it.
We kids are entertained with music CD's and Jewish books. They don't play with electronic toys and have no idea about pro sports. They have other stimulating toys, crafts. They play ball and soccer with friends on the street.
I also want to add that I am not into blogging or other internet surfing. I was readinig Ruchi's blog to understand where my interview would fit in. I do occasionally read through reviews on products I want to buy, or google health issues I may have. but that is as far as my internet usage is.
Thanks SO much for your efforts, and to Libby as well. Libby, can you tell us a little bit more about what differentiates the Vizhnitz sect of Chassidism from others- not just in terms of dress, as you did above, but maybe in other ways? Thank you so very much for your courage in answering our questions. This is such a Kiddush Hashem.
Ilene, there is so much more than dress that defines Viznitz and it's complicated to understand the intricacies what makes a chasidus what it is. Firstly, the basis is on Ahavas HaTorah (Love of Torah), Ahavas HaBorah (Love of the Almighty, and Ahavas Yisroel (Love of the Fellow Jew). Secondly, the customs and traditions are based on where the chasidus originated in this case, the Carpathian Mountains in Russia. For more information I noticed that Wikipedia has a page on Viznitz. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizhnitz_(Hasidic_dynasty)
Wow Ruchi, great interview. I can't wait to read more. I thought the whole shaving of the heads thing was a horrible myth. I'm curious to know if it was hard for Libby to do or was it just no big deal because everyone around her did it or would eventually do it? It's a pretty shocking image of extreme sacrifice (for us more secular folks) and something I thought mean people said about religious people to tear them down.
Actually Wendy, in some chassidic circles a party is thrown for the women after she shaves and the new mother-in-laws give the newly wed an expensive jewelry piece as a gift. For me personally it wasn't hard because I had bad hair and was happy to get rid of it. It also makes it easier knowing that we all do this for a purpose.
Thank you so much for your quick response Libby! It's really nice to "meet" you.
First you say…
" I was in the administrator position in many different roles when my husband was in kollel [full-time paid Torah study program for married men]: yeshiva administrator, head counselor, school government programs administrator."
"Wanting to be equal to a man is masculine in my view. Being discreet, modest and ladylike is a feminine thing."
Isn't it a direct contradiction to:
"Chassidisha girls are raised gender-separate. Besides for her brothers, father, grandfathers and uncles, a girl around the age of 10 and older doesn’t feel comfortable playing with boys or having any kind of relationship with boys or men."
Being in the business world especially in administrative positions would definitely requires you to be in direct contact with men, non-jews etc… What happened with gender separation?
You definitely seem like a man in a woman's body.
"selling toiletries to the hotel industry and eventually doing business with Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympics. From conception to success we worked together beautifully. I was managing the marketing and operations,…
We also traveled together for shows and events which was a nice time to spend together without the hustle of our noisy life interfering."
As a mother how could you run around the world on business trips? Who took care of your kids?
Isn't it more of a male role to run a business?
Just curious…
You bring up very valid points. In all of my executive roles I worked with men, that is true, but the separation was still there. No handshakes or any physical contact. No joking around or simple friendly banter. All contact is only business related. Men co-workers or superiors, never called me by my first name only Mrs. S. and I am adhering to halacha as outlined in a book by a noted chassidic Rabbi entitled "Nine To Five".
As far as traveling around the world for business. I never left the US. I traveled for the benefit of my husband, so he shouldn't have to interact with the women we came in contact.
My roles were always womanly. Woman are blessed with binah yeseira (an extra sense of wisdom). That was my always my position, the feminine touch needed to advance a business.
Bat leot,
A wee bit rude in tone, perhaps….
Can you describe this phrase please:
"The spirituality and simplicity are a warm combination."
The warmth of spirituality of devoting our life to the creator and the simplicity of not running after materialism and high-powered life is a central part what defines us as Chasidim, and it helps us want to lead a more stringent and Torah-observant life.
I love this response!!
I really loved this post. I truly admire Libby's openness, honesty and candor in sharing aspects of her life and her community. It is forums like these, in which we can learn and share about our commonalities as well as our unique differences that will allow us all to develop positive middos and have greater ahavas yisrael for all our fellow Jews. Thank you to both of you for that!
Thank you Michelle and welcome to OOTOB!
Ruchi, thanks for doing this post and Libby, thanks for telling us about your life! Libby, I'm curious to learn about the ban on women driving. Does this have a halachic source or is it a Hassidic Minchag?
OOTOB Fan, first driving is not banned. I don't like to use that word it has a negative meaning. We have a minhag not to drive. It's based on modesty rules and to teach a woman that her place is at home. Although she needs to take care of business she should remember that her place is still at home. However, if there is a special need, like a widow or divorcee, the woman will be allowed to drive if she discussed it with the Rav.
I would like to ask Libby to reflect on the role the Mikva plays in her life. Who took her to the Mikva before the wedding?
I would prefer to answer that privately. Please email [email protected].
Its a very nice interview and one can feel the ehrlichkeit of her. wish myself and many others would be like it. im also impressed that none of the comments are ridiculing what was said. This blog seems to be very diffrent than alot of others. Thanks.
Thank you, jmj. I have a very special readership. And a bit of moderation 😉
Libby, thanks so much for this interview and this opportunity to learn so much about Chassidism. Do you and your friends know much about non-Chassidic and even non-Orthdox Jews or is that something you try to keep a distance from?
I personally know lots of Jews, Non-Chassidic and Non-Orthodox, I try to be friendly and I can relate to all the things we do have in common. I also know that if I don't understand everything about them I can respect them anyway. If someone is Orthodox and has other customs and guidelines they follow I may not understand it but I believe they do understand it and I respect them for it. I also try to teach my children to respect other Jews regardless of their level of observance.
Hello Libby,
Welcome to the online community. There are so many times I have wondered why different communities, cultures, and religions are resistant to positive communication. Your willingness to share your viewpoints and knowledge in such a respectful manner is, I think, what is embodied in Tikkun Olam.
Let me preface my question. My mother died when I was seven, my sister was five. My dad was suddenly "mom" and "dad". (Our extended family lives all over the U.S.)This has shaped me in many ways and I personally feel much more comfortable working and interacting with men than women. In fact, although publicly no one probably notices, I really don't know what to say when I'm around other women my age. (I am married with two children of my own.)
Hypothetically, if this had happened to someone in the Chassidic community, how would the girls in the family cope as they grow?
Thank you again for your thoughtful participation on the blog. So many times it is easy to think a group is {fill in the blank}, but when we are able to talk to an individual, we can learn so much and the truth, along with hope, comes through.
I am so sorry to hear about your personal hardships growing up. In our community we have many different organizations that help out families going through crisis and loss. If a child needs help with a mentor/counselor or foster family, these organizations step-in to help physically and financially to ease the burden a bereaved father or mother faces with raising emotionally healthy children.
Thank you Libby 🙂
I think also worth mentioning is that the phrase "it takes a village to raise a child" is more apparent in close knit communities. When women have such a large extended family network and are growing up in and out of each other's houses, your aunt can become your "second mom" and your grandmother might be more involved. I'm not chassidish, but was amazed when I saw how after a chassidishe friend gave birth and she went to the special "after birth retreat," her mother and sister opened their homes to her family and took care of them around the clock. I think coming from a secular community where more often than not we are absorbed in our own day to day and don't live as close to our extended family this is more of a foreign concept. "Chessed (kindness) begins in the home" is the motto and not just relegated to "organizations" (although there are plenty of organizations out there because of the giving nature that is promoted)
Hello Libby and Ruchi, thank you both for the interview.
Could you both explain how you perceive the differences between the two of you? (being respectively Chassidic and "regular" Orthodox – sorry, I don't know how to formulate it).
Is there animosity between the two movements and a feeling that the other one "got it all wrong" or is it perceived as a mere difference of traditions (kind of like Ashkenazis and Sephardis)?
Would you eat at each other's homes?
Hi, W,
You ask an excellent question. I'll answer from my end, and let Libby answer from her end.
As far as I can see, Libby and I share an enormous amount in common: our belief system, holiday observance, Shabbat customs, core values. (In fact, I would venture to guess that many readers were also pleasantly surprised at how much in common we all have.)
I would be honored to eat in her home. No animosity, as far as I can tell. I don't think she "got it wrong" at all. I see it, like, I'm majoring in English and she's majoring in Science but we're both in the same school and headed to the same corporation. Different tracks to the same city. Pick your metaphor.
I also see it like the Chassidic community has voluntarily added extra stringencies on top of straight up Jewish law. I admire that. I think it's cool to not care what everyone else thinks. I'd like to be more like that.
I want to add that it's possible that Libby wouldn't feel comfortable with the meat I eat, since Chassidim follow extra stringencies that I don't. So to say that I would eat in her home is sort of "duh" since she's probably stricter than me in what she'll eat. I'm cool with that, though.
Ruchi, to be perfectly honest we have a custom not to eat meat only poultry. And yes, we do have certain stringencies when it comes to shechita (Kosher slaughtering). Having said that I still think that if I were lost in Cleveland or I would come to Cleveland for business and I would not have where to be, I would feel very comfortable in your house.
You don't eat meat in general? How do you make cholent?
With chicken cutlets and listen to this….chicken feet. We have a minhag to eat shabbos a dish called P'tzeh, it is a sauce we make from the cholent liquid, sugar, vinegar and garlic and we serve a piece of challah soaked in this sauce with the chicken feet. Its a Viznitz chasidic minhag (custom). Sometimes my cholent is Parve. No meat or chicken only vegetarian.
LOL! My mom grew up with something similar that her grandmother Z"l used to make, and every once in a while she'd try to sneak in chicken feet into her soup and my brother and I would shriek!
Thank you so much for sharing your life with us. I am glad to know you!
I must ask! Why no meat? I'm fascinated . . .
Hi Wendy, Thanks for your interest. The reason we don't eat meat is, because many years ago, when I was a little kid, something (unkosher)went wrong in a slaughtering house that supplies meat to our community. The Rebbe then advised his followers to refrain from eating meat.
Dear Anonymous,
I find it ironic that you accuse me of hiding something for not publishing your comment when your identity is hidden as well. Comments may be moderated out for a variety of reasons. Please feel free to email me at [email protected] and I am happy to explain why I chose not to publish your comment, as well as provide Libby's responses.
Hi again,
I do not find your questions accusatory or threatening at all. There is a very specific reason that I have chosen not to publish them here, anonymously or otherwise. For everything a blogger reveals, much remains concealed, and I believe that privacy is an excellent thing. Again, I am happy to respond via email. Thanks for understanding.
Libby, we have talked on the blog about how many O Jews rely a lot on their Rav for advice in many matters, including ethical advice. Do you and your friends call on your Rav frequently for ethical advice? Or do you find that the relative insularity of Chassidism means that you don't come into complicated ethical situations, since everyone has approximately the same ways of doing things?
As an adjunct to Should be working's question, are you more likely to approach the Rebbetzin (Rabbi's wife)rather than the Rav directly, on daily matters? Or ask your husband to convey your question? What is the chain of contact between you and your community Rav?
There are always questions that come up, halachic and ethical. Most of the time my husband will discuss it with his Rav and many times I will discuss certain things with the Rav as well. If I have something I feel a Rebbetzin can answer better, because I need more womanly advice, I will ask a Rebbetzin.
Thank you for your answer, Ruchi!
I've been reading your blog since the beginning, but this interview called me out of the lurkdom 🙂
I would like to ask another question, about shaving the head. Libby states that she wears a bandana or a sheitel, and also that she wants to look pleasant for her husband. I wonder if she then also covers when she is alone with her husband. I think that beauty/attractiveness standards are largely (or completely) a cultural construct, so whereas my knee-jerk reaction would be that a woman without hair is less attractive, I also realize that maybe Chassidic men see that as beautiful. Would you mind explaining?
(Ruchi, if this is too personal feel free not to post. I don't mean to be disrespectful, just hope for this unique opportunity to ask some questions I'd never have a chance to ask otherwise. I know my great-great-grand mother shaved her head but for obvious reasons never knew her first-hand)
Well, I'm honored. Welcome out of lurkdom. It's kind of fun on this side! I look forward to reading Libby's response to your excellent question. Also looking forward to your continued participation.
Dear W and Ruchi, here is the much anticipated answer… No, we don't uncover our hair – I don't, and W, you are right, beauty/attractiveness is a cultural thing. Wherea you will be beautiful and attractive with your hair, my husband will see the beauty in my head covering. I make sure it is attractive and cute.
Thank you very much for your answer, it was highly anticipated indeed! 🙂
How does it work in practice? Do Chassidic women shave once monthly before the mikveh immersion, or every day? Do they do it at home or are there Chassidic beauty parlors/barbers (naturally I'm reluctant to say "hairdressers"!)?
Actually I'd like to ask Ruchi a similar question – do Orthodox women go to hairdressers, or do you just cut the ends yourself? If I understand well there wouldn't be any reason why you couldn't sport a layered, permed, colored or otherwise elaborate haircut under the covering? If the hairdresser is a woman, there wouldn't be a reason not to do it – or am I missing something?
Some Orthodox women cut their own hair. Often the same women who wash and style our wigs will also cut our hair, and they have a private salon, often in their homes, for that purpose. Or, in communities with many Orthodox women, "regular" salons will offer a private space to cut an Orthodox woman's hair, in order to attract their business.
In my case, it's very important to me to have a nice haircut. There's an Orthodox woman in my neighborhood who has a salon in her basement for both cuts and wig styling, and I have her cut my hair like every few months. I tell her to cut it as though I were a non-covering customer, with bangs and layers and all that.
The only issue with my getting my hair cut is that I don't want anyone (as in other customers) to see my hair unless it's the stylist. I would only use a female stylist.
As far as coloring my hair, I'm not at that stage yet (grateful for good genes) but I know some women do, even if they cover. They want to look pretty when it's uncovered, just as I want to have a good, cute cut.
Yet again, thank you for your answer Ruchi! As you see, once out of lurkdom I just can't seem to stop – and I'm afraid I'll tire you soon with all the questions. I'm sorry, it's just that I know so little! I hope my questions aren't too stupid or "duh".
Actually, after I posted the last question I started thinking that maybe coloring your hair wouldn't be permitted because of the mikveh and whether it would constitute a bareer, but you actually answered my doubts in your reply!
I easily understand why you would only use a female stylist. I am more surprised that you wouldn't want other customers to see your hair (assuming they are all women). I thought the obligation to cover only concerned being seen by unrelated men. Is it a personal stringency, your community minhag, or an Orthodox norm?
Thank you Ruchi for clarifying. I would never have known. I always wondered who cuts your hair. I must admit I never saw a woman taking off her sheitel after it was styled to have a haircut. I shave my hair myself at home monthly before Mikvah.
And Libby, I've wondered about your hair habits too 🙂
W, I will never get tired of readers like you. No such thing as a stupid question.
So actually, there are two major concepts driving the hair-covering thing. One is halachic (law-based) and one is kabbalistic (mystical). To the first, you are right. The only people who can't see my hair are non-related men.
Kabbalistically, there's more to it. There's a mystical connection between the care a woman takes to cover one's hair and the spirituality of her children. So I try to be careful, even where the law technically permits it, to make sure that my hair stays covered unless it's necessary to uncover it. But that's everyone's personal choice, how they choose to observe that mystical idea. That's why I wouldn't want other customers, even female, to see my hair, if it can be avoided.
I thought kabbalah was more an influence on Chassidism than on 'regular' [?] O Judaism. Perhaps you can explain sometime.
I also thought that women were not to study Kaballah?
There is more kabbalistic influence than you may be aware of, even in "normative" Jewish law. For example, there is a halacha to wash one's hands six times upon arising in a certain way. This is to remove the spirit of death that resides on us when we sleep and escapes through the fingernails. Um, yup.
The part of kabbalah that women are not to study is the same kabbalah that barely anyone studies. There are more "revealed" parts of kabbalah such as the parts that are interwoven with Jewish law and customs, and those are the parts I know.
But you're right: many of the extra customs that Chassidim (and Sephardim, for that matter) observe are rooted in an extra awareness and sensitivity to kabbalistic concepts.
So you wash your hands 6 times every morning? And after naps too? What about kids? Never heard of this, interesting.
And if you do it, is it because it is a rule and tradition, or because you yourself believe that the spirit of death is escaping through your fingernails? I can imagine that you could do it as a matter of habit without literally believing it, or is that not the case?
[Believing that death escapes through fingernails is no stranger, in my view, than a common belief that going outside in winter with wet hair will give you a cold, so my question is not meant as a judgment.]
Every morning, yes. And I wash my kids' hands too, even the little ones. We have little gratitude song we sing along with it. Naps that last longer than 1/2 hour, yes too.
I do it both because it is a rule and tradition, and because I believe it. You could certainly observe any part of Judaism without believing in it. In fact, many do. Personally, I think it's better than nothing, again, from a kabbalistic perspective, that every mitzvah has a positive impact on one's soul regardless of intent or passion or belief. I believe that intent, passion, and belief add immeasurably.
It's like if your husband buys flowers for your birthday but doesn't really think bdays are a big deal. It's better than nothing, but wouldn't it be so much cooler if he considered your bday a special occasion?
I'm also interested in Ruchi's and Libby's answers. But I will drop in one of my links to an excruciatingly long essay on Netilat Yadayim: Talmudic vs. Kabbalistic explanations.
Larry, you are an amazing fountain of references and info. I'd love it if you'd give summaries when you give us links, so I can guess a little whether it's something I'll really be happy I read through.
Ok, I skimmed. To be fair, the ARTICLE is only 9 pages long, it's the 26pp of ENDNOTES that are excruciatingly long but nonetheless absolutely necessary to get the full import of the argument.
Fascinating stuff. So if I have this right it appears that Talmud says it's more an issue of achieving physical hygiene by washing (or cleansing, interesting distinction, like whether wiping is enough) and Kabbalah says it's more about spiritual or 'metaphysical' cleansing. But obviously if you put these two together in one tradition that will multiply the sense of how compelling the ritual is. So what interests me is how apparently competing and possibly conflicting purposes and explanations come together [at least in Ruchi's practice of this ritual, since she is non-Chassidic but cites the Chassidic reasoning] to reinforce the importance of the thing.
Ok, I didn't even skim (and now that you say the endnotes are a must, I'm thinking it's too overwhelming to even attempt!), so I may be saying things that are not true here which I hope Larry – our resident fountain of info! – will swiftly correct. Washing hands is a practice that is way older than Chassidism. You may sometimes find greater emphasis on kabbalistically-based rituals by chassidim but a ritual like hand-washing is across the board (for Orthodox – don't know about others) to the best of my knowledge. So, for example, my friends from a stronger chassidic background actually kept a basin and a washing cup filled with water at their bedside so as to wash their hands first thing in the morning, before even getting out of bed. (You can buy a set here:
hand washing set) I, on the other hand, get up and go to the bathroom to wash my hands. But certainly it's the first thing I do.
I thought you have to pray when you first open your eyes? But then you are supposed to be 'clean' for prayers, so then hand-washing would be first?
You could actually get a lot out of the article without the endnotes, but the details are pretty interesting.
Larry that *was* fascinating. Seriously, you are a library.
To bring it back to where it began, I think SBW's observations that "But obviously if you put these two together in one tradition that will multiply the sense of how compelling the ritual is" applies to the original mitzvah in question, which is hair convering – which also has both "halachic" and "kabbalistic" import. Would you all agree?
Yes, Ayelet, you're right that kabbalah is an ancient as the world itself (more ancient, to be precise). We all tap into it somehow in Jewish observance (even very secular Jews don't want an evil eye, as I've mentioned elsewhere) but Chassidim, more so.
SBW: You say "Modeh ani," the gratitude one-liner upon awakening, but it doesn't contain God's name which is why it's OK to say it before the handwashing. Then you do the handwashing, then you can pray.
I aspire to be a library. For now I'm merely an index. :>)
I agree that multiple reasons to support a practice are useful. For some people the sheer number of reasons may be compelling. But for people who are more particular, if there are 6 reasons to perform a ritual, they might like at least one of them. Ruach rah(*) is not a reason for me to perform handwashing (which is one reason why I don't do mayim archronim(**) (in addition to the fact that that is not practiced by Yekkes(***))). But hygienic reasons make sense for morning handwashing, and I'm happy to accommodate by doing it with a cup before doing it with soap.
(*) 'evil spirit or what Ruchi called 'the spirit of death'.
(**) ritual washing of the tips of the fingers after eating a meal.
(***) Jews of German descent
Some time I want to hear more about Yekkes.
Libby I was wandering when does the shaving thing start?
This was a beautiful interview. Thank you for giving me a glimpse into your world.
Libby- In previous posts, this blog addressed how different types of Jews see each other. How do chassidim in your community view secular Jews or non-orthodox Jews? -MP
Libby, I'm very curious in your community if the women have opinions regarding other frum women outside the chassidishe community that are more active in the secular world, work with men etc etc. Is the overall perspective one of: pity? disgust? equanimity? respect? understanding that not all frum women are the same?
Chavi, we understand that not all frum women are the same and everyone should do according to their needs and customs. As long as they follow Daas Torah and they consult with their Rav on Halachic questions that come up.
Libby, I realize you might be slowly moving on from this blog, but in case you haven't, here's another question: Have you ever felt like the authority you consulted gave you advice that you didn't feel right about? Have you ever chosen to disregard that advice?
Thanks again for participating. It is so illuminating.
Dear readers,
Libby will be slowly answering your comments and questions over the next few days. Please continue to check in.
This was fascinating. Thank you to both of you.
Ruchi and Libby, what an incredible forthcoming interview. I thank you both, especially Libby who is new to this format, for your willingness to share.
I want to tell you that my family is not Orthodox, but we have come to love the atmosphere and the people at Chabad. Although I was raised Reform, my husband Conservative, and we raise our family in what I call "reformadox" (meaning we do many things: mikvah, shabbat, kosher, but we are not Orthodox or even "Modern Orthdox") we choose to spend our shabbat mornings at Chabad. Everyone has always been welcoming, warm, and the entire atmosphere feels spiritual. It also has a nice simplicity. Now the challenge will be where to have my kids' bar/bat mitzvahs. (We have 2 boys and 2 girls). I say "challenge" because my husband's family has a very strong presence in the Conservative shul here. It's where my little ones go to nursery school, etc. It will be interesting to see how we work this out!
Anyway, sorry to delve so far off the interview. It's truly hard to open yourself to potential criticism and I applaud you, Libby, for your honesty. Thank you.
Thank you, Nina! I don't know if you noticed, but my "mikveh" hyperlink above is to a piece you authored on the topic.
Ooooh! I missed that link. Thanks for pointing it out – I really enjoyed it.
Thank you! I had NOT noticed. So glad you pointed it out!
Wow, Ruchi and Libby. Kol haKavod! I thoroughly enjoyed reading this interview, and enjoyed the peek into Libby's world. Beautiful. I don't have any questions, just wanted to let you know that I appreciate what you're doing, and IY"H, it should be a zchus for klal Yisrael, and bring us all closer in understanding and loving each other, to see the differences as part of a mosaic of the Jewish world rather than lines of divisiveness.
Well AMEN to that. Well said Rivki!
Amen from me too!
Sparrow, Nina, Rivki, and TRR,
Thank you so much for your positive responses. There has been some negativity, but overall the reactions to this piece have been overwhelmingly positive. While acknowledging that Libby's life is not for everyone, one can sense her sincerity, courage and intelligence. I look forward to highlighting different variations of Orthodox to continue to bring Orthodox Judaism out of the box. Your responses are so encouraging.
Dear Libby and Ruchi:
This is such a beautiful interview, I want to squeeze both of you. Having been brought up Orthodox, and then leaving for a Conservative synagogue only to find a joyless congregation and have to wander again, we have landed in a wonderful, warm Reform temple with many dear friends. I might have missed this somewhere, and I apologize if I did. How did you find Ruchi?
In our community here in Rochester, NY, I find there is little interaction between Jewish women from all different levels of observance. By that I mean, reform stick to reform. Orthodox stick to Orthodox: not much intermingling.
Yesterday, I wanted to buy challah for Tisha Ba'av and the market was out. A frum woman, Rachel, offered to deliver some challah to me at my house! She was so generous! And while I did not take her up on her offer, I found myself thinking: "Duh! Boy did I miss an opportunity for dialogue there!" There seems to be little opportunity to have these important exchanges. And for all our differences, we do have so much in common. Thank you so much for being so honest and open about all of these things.
I love Ruchi's blog, and I think she does a beautiful job in all of her posts in trying to connect people.
You mentioned two things that struck me: The idea that you sometimes do feel a little "shackled" by not being able to drive, and also that "Chassidic girls and women are not confident or proud enough."
It must be interesting to try to fit the concept of feminism within the constructs of Chassidism. You noted that a girl "will not mingle with … men, or wish to express herself, or show her talent, equal to her male counterpart." I have to admit that made me sigh a little bit. I'm trying to figure out why.
I hope is that that all Chassdic girls have strong mothers like you so they can grow up feeling proud and confident about themselves. Thank you again for showing us a piece of your world. I like it so very much.
FYI: Ruchi, my family travels to Cleveland all the time! 😉
You didn't miss it – I didn't say. Basically, I got this idea in my head that I wanted to interview a non-Chabad chassidic woman on my blog. There has a been a bit of buzz recently about Hasids and Hasidism, with responses from the Chabad community. Now, the Chabad community is wonderful, but it does not typify "Chassidism" in terms of the things find really interesting as well as intimidating: insularity, obviously different dress on the part of the women, reluctance to engage on the web and social media.
So basically I sent an email to a listserve that I'm on for Orthodox educators, asking if anyone knew a non-Chabad Chassidic woman that would be willing to be interviewed. I got a number of responses, but many of them were atypical in some way: they started out secular and became Chassidic, she converted to Judaism, they are involved in outreach with secular college kids, etc. But I really wanted a typical Chassidic woman.
Finally, a friend that I had met at a leadership conference emailed me that she has a co-worker who is awesome…and that is how I met Libby. But. She is anything but typical.
Re: dialogue. Trust me, you are not alone. Starting a dialogue with a fellow non-similar Jew is hard. There's a glass ceiling for you. Or a glass mechitza. *sigh*
I'll let Libby respond to your other, thoughtful, observations.
And I would be delighted to meet up when you come to Cleveland: you have an open invitation.
The minhag (custom) that woman don't drive is sometimes hard on me because I work out of the house at the other end of town and it is not easy for me to get around without bothering my husband for it or waiting endlessly for taxis. I say this because I don't want you to think we don't have our challenges. I still think Chasidic women and girls should be proud of our rich spiritual heritage and traditions and they should be happy with who they are instead of feeling downtrodden and inferior.
Ruchi, I must tell you I am quite typical. I am glad we got together to do this. I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to give you a glimpse into the life of a simple chasidic woman. I am amazed by the interest of your readership to want to understand what is beyond the surface. I hope I created a positive picture of what defines us Chasidic women. I appreciate all the comments and questions. I hope I was helpful in my responses. It is my wish that we can all come together as loving sisters with continued understanding, respect and tolerance.
Libby, just to show you the interest, in one week, this post is my second-most popular post in my year of blogging. That's 151 posts, many of which have been linked to larger websites. And, it's only 500 hits short of first place, so I have no doubt that it will be in first place very soon. In fact, I've asked a couple of people if they would consider being interviewed for this blog (to make it a series) and they said, "Well, I'm not as interesting as Libby, but…"
Thank you again for your time and candor. And amen!!
Yet another question – hey, at least I warned you beforehand 🙂
Libby says that after kollel men will get a job or take training courses, but that are gender-separate and held in community centers -s my understanding is that Chassidim won't go to universities. If so, how about doctors and lawyers? Will some men go to study those subjects at university, or does the community rely on Orthodox but non-Chassidic professionals?
The second scenario would suggest that with all its insularity the Chassidic community would still need the non-Chassidic society to some extent, creating an interesting dynamic of dependence/independence.
W, I'm going to venture a guess. I don't think the Chassidic community produces many doctors or lawyers which are professions that require extensive and expensive schooling. For that the community would rely on non-Chassidic professionals. I don't really see how dependence would play in here, if they are paid professionals; I would seek the best doctor and lawyer I could afford regardless of religion (in fact, my last OB was a Palestinian woman).
Ruchi, You are right on the button! We look for the best practitioners regardless of religion or religiousness. I also want to add that there are a growing number of chasidic doctors. Some became Chasidic after their medical training, others have a family tradition of s must for higher education. But it is unusual for a Chasid to be a doctor or lawyer.
Dependence in the meaning that the Chassidim then do have to use services from outside the community, while I had the impression that the overall trend is to isolate themselves from the outside world. I guess I thought that ideally Chassidim would love to live on an island, whereas I now realize they do not necessarily wish to cut all ties to society at large.
As for choosing your doctor (or lawyer, or teacher etc), while I completely agree that one should choose the best professional regardless of his/hers religion, I think it's easier to go to someone who knows where you come from. For example an OBGYN who will understand what taharat hamishpacha is and take it into account when treating infertility problems. Or, if you are from a minority,, someone who'd know there is a bigger prevalence of certain diseases in your ethnic group. He/she doesn't have to be from that group, but it's easier if he/she is aware of certain particularities.
The truth is, that's a good point. I prefer to use an OB who is familiar (or at least has heard of) those laws. And definitely for an attorney (depending on the nature of the issue) familiarity with our culture is often helpful. Specifically though I've found this with choosing a therapist. When I needed one for one of my kids, I sought a therapist who was, first and foremost, well-recommended; secondly, familiar and sympathetic to my religious sensitivities and culture (while not necessarily part of it, as you mention); and thirdly, on my insurance (ugh).
Wow, I'm somehow very surprised that you even would go to a therapist (I'm assuming you mean a psychotherapist here). I thought O Jews don't do that. Interesting.
Live and learn 🙂
BS"D
Dear Ruchi and Libby,
I just found this blog thanks to a link from Mr Larry Lennhoff. I enjoyed reading this entry, it was personal and inspiring. Thank you for sharing a bit about your life and Chasidus Libby!
LeSholom,
Nadja
My spouse and I absolutely love your blog and find a lot of your post's to be what precisely I'm looking for.
Does one offer guest writers to write content
available for you? I wouldn't mind writing a post or elaborating on some of the subjects you write related to here. Again, awesome website!
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I really so appreciated the blog with Libby. I have a high regard for the order and processes and much more importantly the product of orthodox Judaism. I was a writer of middle grade and young adult literature, and my latest character is from a fictional Jewish sect which actually mirrors orthodox Judaism. I was doing some research for the series I am writing, and this blog came up with in my search results. It really changed my day and made me feel so enriched. I felt like a good deed was done to me in reading the responses:)I would have added my name (Guidry), but I did not see how so I chose anonymous
I am a 60-something female BT who was raised in a household which celebrated the Jewish holidays, but was otherwise (except for Sunday School) secular. I have recently discovered the depth and beauty of Judaism, and I have become quite passionate about my observance and study. I wonder, however, since I am new to this and getting on in age, if I will ever be accepted by the Orthodox Jewish Community.
I would like to thank you, Ruchi, for this forum which feels like a generous, supportive space.
I realize that minchagim ultimately rule, and by the nature of the roles & responsibilities delegated for men & women the laws and customs will remain the same; however, I always wonder what the influence of binah yeseira would have provided in the interpretation of the written word…
Not to be negative
But Ruchi, I think you are being very naive
Living in Cleveland affords you that luxury
If you lived in Monsey , Boro Park or even Lakewood , you might see for yourself that they aren't the angelic creatures Libby makes them out to be
Hi, Ruchi, and Libby if you are still reading this,
I am absolutely fascinated by this article. I am a baalas teshuva and my husband and I are very drawn toward Chassidus. My husband already has a Rebbe and is taking on chassidish minhagim, but we haven't yet moved to that community, so there are some basic questions that I would love to ask a rebbetzin but can't just yet. Is there, by any chance, an email that I could reach you at to ask you some questions privately? Thank you!
Hi Anonymous,
Libby isn't following this post anymore, but feel free to email me at [email protected] and I can connect you to her.
It's been a pleasure to read this interview and the comments as well. Thanks to all who have kept the conversation so respectful and informative!