INTRODUCTION
Ruchi’s intro:
I thought it was a good idea to interview a Modern Orthodox
Jew here on the blog, and I thought of my old classmate (that is,
classmate from awhile ago – she’s not old! She’s exactly my age :). Daphne Soclof, who lives right here near me in Cleveland. Daphne was
very gracious about being interviewed, and we met in person for the
interview.
Jew here on the blog, and I thought of my old classmate (that is,
classmate from awhile ago – she’s not old! She’s exactly my age :). Daphne Soclof, who lives right here near me in Cleveland. Daphne was
very gracious about being interviewed, and we met in person for the
interview.
Daphne’s intro:
Originally,
you asked if you could interview me in the name of Modern Orthodoxy.
But I feel like I’m a Torah-observant Jew, and that there needs to be
synthesis between the modern world and Torah law. That doesn’t
categorize me as “modern” but as rather, Torah u’mada (Torah synthesized
with science). The balance between the two puts me in the center:
centrist. There are various Hebrew titles, such as “torah u’mada” or
“dati-tziyoni” (Orthodox-Zionist) or “dati-leumi”
(religious/nationalist) that carry different political affiliations as
far as being a Zionist.
you asked if you could interview me in the name of Modern Orthodoxy.
But I feel like I’m a Torah-observant Jew, and that there needs to be
synthesis between the modern world and Torah law. That doesn’t
categorize me as “modern” but as rather, Torah u’mada (Torah synthesized
with science). The balance between the two puts me in the center:
centrist. There are various Hebrew titles, such as “torah u’mada” or
“dati-tziyoni” (Orthodox-Zionist) or “dati-leumi”
(religious/nationalist) that carry different political affiliations as
far as being a Zionist.
PERSONAL INFO
Ootob: What is your name?
Daphne Shamir Soclof (I took my maiden name as my middle name)
Ootob: Where did you grow up?
Cleveland, Ohio
Ootob: How old are you?
38
Ootob: What’s your favorite food?
Schnitzel!
Ootob: Do you have talents/hobbies?
Reading, cooking
Ootob: Where do you live?
Beachwood, Ohio
FAMILY
Ootob: How many siblings do you have and where do you fit in? Brothers/sisters? How old?
I have two older siblings, a brother and a sister. They are 50 and 46. I’m the youngest. I hope my siblings don’t mind my putting that out there 🙂
Ootob: What did your parents do for a living?
My mother was the director of a Jewish supplementary school and my father owned a garage and a body shop.
Ootob: How many children do you have? How old/boys or girls? Would you like to have more?
I have, thank G-d, five. Two girls, 15 and 13; two boys, 10 and 8; and a girl, 4. In an ideal world I would love to have more.
Ootob: What do you and your husband do for a living?
My
husband is a lawyer by trade but owns a real estate company. I have my
master’s in educational psychology and work at a charter school,
Virtual Schoolhouse.
husband is a lawyer by trade but owns a real estate company. I have my
master’s in educational psychology and work at a charter school,
Virtual Schoolhouse.
Ootob: Are you and your husband practicing Judaism in a similar fashion to how you grew up, or is it different? If so, how so?
Both similar and different. My husband grew up in an Orthodox home and is philosophically similar to how he grew up, but practically has intensified his practice. For me, I came from a traditional non-observant home and chose to be observant with my parents’ and sisters encouragement.
Both of my parents are Holocaust survivors. In order to keep me
sheltered and connected to my heritage, they put me in a Jewish Day
School for my entire education nursery through 12th grade.
They also supported my choice to Study in Israel for a year and continue
on to Yeshiva University’s Stern College for women.
Both of my parents are Holocaust survivors. In order to keep me
sheltered and connected to my heritage, they put me in a Jewish Day
School for my entire education nursery through 12th grade.
They also supported my choice to Study in Israel for a year and continue
on to Yeshiva University’s Stern College for women.
MARRIAGE
Ootob: How old were you and your husband when you got married?
I was 20 (almost 21) and my husband, Richie, was 23.
Ootob: How were you set up and how did the dating work?
We
became friends as young children through Bnei Akiva, a dati-Tziyoni
[Orthodox-Zionist] youth organization. We started dating organically at
Camp Stone, an Orthodox-Zionist overnight camp, and we stayed
together ever since. I actually put a note in the kotel when I was 10
wishing for three things: 1, that my grandparents would live forever; 2,
that Mashiach (the Messiah) would come; and 3, that I’d marry Rich. So
I guess he had no choice!
became friends as young children through Bnei Akiva, a dati-Tziyoni
[Orthodox-Zionist] youth organization. We started dating organically at
Camp Stone, an Orthodox-Zionist overnight camp, and we stayed
together ever since. I actually put a note in the kotel when I was 10
wishing for three things: 1, that my grandparents would live forever; 2,
that Mashiach (the Messiah) would come; and 3, that I’d marry Rich. So
I guess he had no choice!
Ootob: Can you describe what your wedding was like?
The
most fun ever. Hundreds of wild and crazy people! Religious,
spiritual. The most moving part was when we stood under the chuppah and
the entire room sang “im eshkachech yerushalayim” (a song about
remembering that Jerusalem has not yet been rebuilt; traditionally
acknowledged at our moments of greatest joy, such as a wedding). It was
a real mix of communities – because my parents’ friends and family were
not observant, – which made it beautiful.
most fun ever. Hundreds of wild and crazy people! Religious,
spiritual. The most moving part was when we stood under the chuppah and
the entire room sang “im eshkachech yerushalayim” (a song about
remembering that Jerusalem has not yet been rebuilt; traditionally
acknowledged at our moments of greatest joy, such as a wedding). It was
a real mix of communities – because my parents’ friends and family were
not observant, – which made it beautiful.
Ootob: How do you and your husband stay connected while raising a busy large family and with all the community obligations?
It’s really hard and takes a lot of work and thank G-d for Shabbat, because once a week for 24 hours we have to tune out the outside world and only focus on each other and our family (and
all the guests we have over). We’re not the “date night” type but we
do try to sit out on the porch by ourselves and connect.
all the guests we have over). We’re not the “date night” type but we
do try to sit out on the porch by ourselves and connect.
Ootob: How would you describe how you and your husband share work and parenting responsibilities?
We’re
equal partners in parenting and in our home; the burden of truly
providing economically for our family unfortunately falls on my husband,
although I try to help. The food brought to the Shabbos table is
cooked by me and the Torah brought to the Shabbos table is provided by
him. He drives the kids to school every day and davens (prays) in their
school with them. The appointments, haircuts, etc, are more me.
equal partners in parenting and in our home; the burden of truly
providing economically for our family unfortunately falls on my husband,
although I try to help. The food brought to the Shabbos table is
cooked by me and the Torah brought to the Shabbos table is provided by
him. He drives the kids to school every day and davens (prays) in their
school with them. The appointments, haircuts, etc, are more me.
MOTHERHOOD AND WORKING
Ootob: How does mothering philosophically fit in with your profession?
Being
a parent is my priority and I hope that the education I have helps in
raising my kids as well as personal fulfillment in the workplace.
a parent is my priority and I hope that the education I have helps in
raising my kids as well as personal fulfillment in the workplace.
Ootob: Can you describe the Centrist Orthodox view of women and working?
I
don’t think there is a particular view. I think you’ll find most women
have a higher education, master’s degrees, PHD’s, etc. Some choose not
to work and some do. I don’t know of any mothers in our (Orthodox Zionist) school who don’t
at least have a bachelor’s degree. Most have gone on for more, though
many choose not to work but instead volunteer their talents in the
greater community.
don’t think there is a particular view. I think you’ll find most women
have a higher education, master’s degrees, PHD’s, etc. Some choose not
to work and some do. I don’t know of any mothers in our (Orthodox Zionist) school who don’t
at least have a bachelor’s degree. Most have gone on for more, though
many choose not to work but instead volunteer their talents in the
greater community.
Ootob: How does secular education fit into this?
It’s
an absolute priority for me, as long as it can synthesize with our
Torah values. That’s why I love the day school our kids go to because
the science teacher holds the same religious beliefs that I do and
absolutely teaches science, and is able to field questions in the
religious realm as well. Nothing is omitted or sugar-coated but the
kids are taught to have secular and religious work in conjunction with
each other.
an absolute priority for me, as long as it can synthesize with our
Torah values. That’s why I love the day school our kids go to because
the science teacher holds the same religious beliefs that I do and
absolutely teaches science, and is able to field questions in the
religious realm as well. Nothing is omitted or sugar-coated but the
kids are taught to have secular and religious work in conjunction with
each other.
DRESS
Ootob: How do you dress as an Orthodox woman?
I only wear skirts outside my home, and I cover my head outside my home. I try to adhere to the Torah guidelines of modesty.
Ootob: Does this impact you at work?
I
look different from the other people at work, but not for the reasons
you might think. My co-workers are either African-American or Orthodox
Jews who are more to the right, so I guess I don’t look exactly like
either group! But we all respect each others’ outfits. And almost all
of us wear head coverings. (Both groups wear a lot of wigs, and I
don’t. I generally wear a scarf or hat.)
look different from the other people at work, but not for the reasons
you might think. My co-workers are either African-American or Orthodox
Jews who are more to the right, so I guess I don’t look exactly like
either group! But we all respect each others’ outfits. And almost all
of us wear head coverings. (Both groups wear a lot of wigs, and I
don’t. I generally wear a scarf or hat.)
Ootob: How do you cover your hair?
I cover my head, not my hair, per the religious concept of “kisui rosh.”
I generally wear a hat or a scarf and my hair sticks out. I do own a
wig for special occasions, although I often feel hypocritical wearing
it. I got it because sometimes you just have to blend in. Frankly, the
real pressure came from some specific individuals in the more
right-wing Orthodox community who don’t view my style of head-covering
as legit, so when I attend those types of functions I wear a wig to fit
in. I’m very proud to cover my head as a sign of being married and
never felt uncomfortable doing that in the secular environment.
I generally wear a hat or a scarf and my hair sticks out. I do own a
wig for special occasions, although I often feel hypocritical wearing
it. I got it because sometimes you just have to blend in. Frankly, the
real pressure came from some specific individuals in the more
right-wing Orthodox community who don’t view my style of head-covering
as legit, so when I attend those types of functions I wear a wig to fit
in. I’m very proud to cover my head as a sign of being married and
never felt uncomfortable doing that in the secular environment.
Ootob: Is it hard for you to follow these rules? What’s the hardest part?
No,
for the most part it’s not, because I think it bring beauty and
structure to my life. It was a real choice for me. I wasn’t born into
it and therefore I’m passionate about that decision.
for the most part it’s not, because I think it bring beauty and
structure to my life. It was a real choice for me. I wasn’t born into
it and therefore I’m passionate about that decision.
Ootob: What is your favorite part of being an Orthodox woman?
The
laws and guidelines on the beauty of family purity (mikveh) and the way
women are praised and valued as the linchpin of the Jewish home. In other words, being a Jewish wife and mother.
laws and guidelines on the beauty of family purity (mikveh) and the way
women are praised and valued as the linchpin of the Jewish home. In other words, being a Jewish wife and mother.
CENTRIST ORTHODOXY
Ootob: When did Centrist Orthodoxy begin?
It’s just an evolving process as we try to strive to live both a Torah observant life and live in the modern world.
Ootob: What is the best aspect of Centrist Orthodoxy, in your experience?
Being able to question why and how we do things and finding educated answers from Torah scholars as well as secular experts.
Ootob: What is its challenge?
Living
in the shade of gray is challenging because you are constantly choosing
and thinking. It’s never black and white (outside of the 613 laws).
It’s what makes it nice, and it’s what makes it hard.
in the shade of gray is challenging because you are constantly choosing
and thinking. It’s never black and white (outside of the 613 laws).
It’s what makes it nice, and it’s what makes it hard.
Ootob: How does Centrist Orthodoxy handle some of the traditional rules of Orthodoxy, such as women’s roles in synagogue?
I
think it handles it very well, within the guidelines of halacha
(always) but with the ability for women to feel empowered and a part of
the process, sometimes with all-women’s davening on special occasions.
think it handles it very well, within the guidelines of halacha
(always) but with the ability for women to feel empowered and a part of
the process, sometimes with all-women’s davening on special occasions.
Ootob: Any closing thoughts or remarks?
As
a woman and mother, I always feel valued and important in my role as an
Orthodox Jew, and above all else, I prefer not to have a label, because
I feel that all Jews are part of one large group, and although we all
may practice differently, fundamentally we are all part of the same
religion. Although this interview is about what makes me different, I
want to stress that the things I value about Judaism are the things that
make us all alike. We are one people.
Thanks for sharing your life with us, Daphne. Ruchi, you use the term centrist orthodox interchangeabley with modern orthodox, but I was under the impression they were different. For example, I believe JITC/Allison Joseph's identifies as centrist orthodox, but don't think she identifies as modern. I was under the impression that Modern Orthodoxy was to the left if centrist. I have several friends that identify as Modern orthodoxy and they do seem slightly to the left of Daphne. Sorry to fixate on the label
So much. Also, JITC does a great post on describing dif types of Orthodoxy but I'm on my phone right now and can't link to it.
I used the terms interchangeably because I didn't really notice the difference, till this interview. I am getting educated! Anyone that can weigh in on what Modern Orthodoxy actually is (so far I've heard more people say "I don't like that label" than proudly wear it), please do. Especially if you feel it identifies you.
I was personally uncomfortable with the term “modern” because I felt it implies “lax” or “less observant”. I have friends who are both more to the left and to the right of me, and they all do call themselves modern. I guess I was just not in agreement with what I thought the term now implies.
Ruchi, I think it's great that you want to hear more about what Modern Orthodoxy actually is, but I don't think that this post is the best place for that. It would be better to interview someone who wears that label proudly and discuss it there, not on a post where the central subject thinks Modern Orthodox is merely a euphemism for lax observance. However… I will say a little bit.
While I disagree with R'Maryles of the blog Emes Ve-Emunah on many things, I believe he does a good job in breaking down the subgroups among those who affiliate or self-identify as Modern Orthodox as follows:
"RWMO [Right Wing MO] is that category that seeks to follow Halacha as meticulously as possible, follows long established non Halachic traditions and resists attempts to change them in order to accommodate the current Zeitgeist…. Ideologically we tend to follow the principles of Torah Im Derech Eretz as interpreted by Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch, or Torah U’Mada (in broad and varied interpretation). And we embrace modernity where it does not conflict with Halacha."
"LWMO [Left Wing MO] is pretty much the same with the exception of trying to innovate change in non Halachic but traditional areas of Jewish life – pushing the envelope of change to fit in with the spirit of the times."
"[MO-Lite] tend not to be as focused on the ideological as they are on the social…. They were themselves raised modern in observant homes and have minimal religious educations…. They continue following in the paths of their parents, are basically observant in the major areas of Shabbos and Kashrus, but will almost always choose lifestyle over what they see as minor Halachos when they come into conflict."
http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2011/07/going-otd-in-world-of-modern-orthodoxy.html
For example (my example, not R'Maryles), a LWMO woman is one who would be just as comfortable taking a niddah question to a yoetzet halacha as she would to a rabbi. The MO-lite approach would be to not bother asking because "It's probably OK."
As R'Maryles also points out, the "lite" phemomenon is very much present in centrist, yeshivish and chassidish communities, but more under-the-radar due to fear of community sanction.
I would also add that unobservant Jews are, in my experience, more likely to affiliate with and/or attend MO synagogues than any other type of Orthodox synagogue except maybe Chabad. So that may also color others' impression of what it means to be Modern Orthodox.
LWMO,
Presuming this is pretty much universally accepted by the various streams you mention, it's *really* elucidating. I've always wondered about this.
To your last point: Why do you think this is true? Is it because the mechitza is usually more user-friendly, and/or the formal sanctuaries more what they are used to from Reform or Conservative congregations?
Ruchi,
I don't think the framework is universally accepted in that specific form, just that IMHO it's accurate as a description of three "types." In reality, I think LWMO and RWMO are areas on a spectrum with people falling all along it, willing to accommodate changes in non-halachic-but-traditional areas to varying degrees (as even more RW groups are, see, e.g. the rise of the bat mitzvah). And there's a little "lite" in every Jew.
I haven't seen the term "lite" used anywhere else, but I believe most people would recognize the category R'Maryles describes. The most helpful thing about spelling these out, as he does, is the differentiation between a more liberal ideology (which leads to things like yoatzot halachah) and a laxity in practice (which leads to things like "it's OK to eat milchigs out").
As to the last point, I'm sure it's a combination of factors. Possibly friendlier mechitzahs and/or bigger women's sections, maybe (though some MO shuls have very meh women's sections IMO). Little to no sex segregation outside the davening context(like having a mechitzah at the kiddush after davening or an expectation of separate seating at simchas or a norm that women don't ever make speeches to mixed crowds). Unobservant Jews are more likely to have things in common culturally with MO Jews who are more in tune with the secular world and are more likely to have similar resumes professionally/educationally. Maybe as simple as living in the same neighborhood, as many of the more RW neighborhoods seem to be in poorer areas. MO shuls might be more likely to give an aliyah to someone who is not shomer Shabbos or who is intermarried (I've seen MO shuls do both but maybe some RW shuls would also permit one or both, I don't know). I could think of more reasons but I don't know which ones matter.
Thank you Ruchi and Daphne for that interview. I noticed that the word "Zionist" comes back quite a few times. Does it mean that your particular flavor of Judaism is more zionist, or is it just a name that stuck? (like a Conservative Jew will not necessarily be conservative, but it's a label).
And if it's more than just a name, what does zionism mean for you?
Zionism is a major part of the ideology of some of the movements making up Centrist (and Modern) Orthodoxy – such as Mizrakhi/National Religious which (in a few word) posits that the creation of the modern State of Israel is the unfolding of Redemption. Due to a very significant overlap, sometimes it's hard to tell where Mizrakhi ends and Tora u'Mada begins.
This is different from mainstream Yeshivish/Litvish Orthodoxy where Zionism is not an ideological factor and various movements and members can easily vary from Zionist to indifferent to vehemently anti-Zionist.
my response is below…
Question for Ruchi and Daphne: Where do you see your biggest differences from each other, apart from hair-covering practices and Daphne's apparently greater emphasis on science education for the kids?
Ruchi, since I just did so much of the "talking" I will let you tackle this one first 🙂
I honestly can't think of anything else.
This is the same question I was going to ask! Since you can't think of more, Ruchi, do you think there are cultural differences or is that also a no?
Thanks to both of you for doing this interview. The interviews are my favorite part of this blog so far!
🙂 Thank you! That's nice to hear.
So I actually have been thinking this over a lot and realized that while our practice of Judaism is so similar, almost to the point of indiscernible, there are two basic areas where our ideologies diverge (subtly). In other words, sometimes we do similar things for different reasons.
1. Secular education
This may sound scandalous, but I see secular education as valuable insofar as it's a means to an end. And that end is… being a fulfilled and good Jew. That means being able to support your family, being able to communicate with those around you, and knowing what you need to know to navigate this world. What that education looks like, how old you are when you pursue it, and where it comes from, can have lots of different answers, but secular education as valuable in and of itself is to my mind questionable. (Awaiting the onslaught.)
2. Zionism.
Again, I don't view this a separate value in my life, but rather as a value that falls under the umbrella of Judaism (similar to my "I'm a Jewist" post). To my mind, any "Orthodox" Jew with a beating heart loves Israel; it's in the oxygen. You pray that love three times a day and every time you eat. It's practically all you talk about in the prayers. You face east, for Israel. You break the glass at a wedding, for Israel. What is different about Zionism that is not already covered in Judaism?
So in practice, we'll both educate our kids, both Judaically, and in secular subjects, and we both love Israel, visit it, may even move there one day, support it financially and with our prayers…but in theory/philosophy, the paths to that end are ever-so-slightly divergent.
Believe me, I understand and am sympathetic to the RWOJ ideal that secular education is a means to an end, so no onslaught. But what does a RWOJ parent do when a child has a bent for some aspect of secular education well beyond the need to navigate the world? Not just an aptitude but a real love for something – could be science, art, classical music or one of the social science field, or medicine or even law. Not only is it beyond the need to navigate the world, but it's taking time away that *should* be spent on Torah study (especially a problem for RWOJ boys). How does someone with your philosophy handle the situation? No judgments, just wondering.
Would you pray at each other's synagogues? Is the rite identical or are there noticeable differences?
Ruchi, you explained things beautifully. I would pray in any synagogue, and have prayed in Ruchi’s many times, as has she in mine (hope I am not speaking out of turn).
I think the difference between a Zionist and non-Zionist Orthodox Jew is the attitude toward the State of Israel. What Ruchi's talking about here is the Land of Israel. And while I think any Jew who doesn't value the State of Israel from a practical standpoint is out of touch with reality, "religious Zionists" value it in theological terms as well, considering it the start of the final Redemption. There are major variations within this theology (Rav Soloveitchik vs. Rav Zvi Yehuda Kook) — and I can't go into detail here because I'm not an expert on the subject — but that's the basic idea.
I am really interested to read replies to the special-secular-aptitude question.
DG, thanks for explaining the theology behind the designation "religious Zionist". I never understood until now that it is not just a matter of religious people who are also Zionist.
Anonymous, thanks for the non-judgmental and good question. In answer to: "But what does a RWOJ parent do when a child has a bent for some aspect of secular education well beyond the need to navigate the world? Not just an aptitude but a real love for something – could be science, art, classical music or one of the social science field, or medicine or even law."
Answer: pursue it! What a gift. And try to help my child use it for wonderful things: to help people, maximize his/her potential, and be a kiddush Hashem (good ambassador for Judaism and for the name of God).
W: I would agree with Daphne!
DG: I think that's a really good way to put it.
Sorry to come back to this, but it's still not quite clear in my head:
Do you belong to different movements and therefore tend to go to different shuls? Or do both of your synagogues cover a wider spectrum of practices than what each of you represents?
Ruchi, are there women in your synagogue who'd only be covering their heads? Daphne, are there women in yours that wouldn't let anyone (even you) see their hair?
[for the record, I think that head-covering is a bit secondary, but exemplifies what I'm trying to understand]
Same "movement" – I know what you're asking, although I wouldn't really call Orthodoxy a movement at all. We go to different shuls because they are different flavors within the movement. There are some women in our shul who only cover heads, but that would be the exception.
I'll let Daphne answer from her end. I would say there would some that "look" like each of us mixed in with the other, and then when there's an occasion/simcha, we all daven anywhere.
I think "flavor" is a great way to describe the differences. You will find women in my community who look just like Ruchi, but they are not the majority… there are women in my community who would not show a strand of hair and others who show all of their hair and do not cover their heads. It is a personal choice, in my "modern" community we do not look like a homogeneous group. We are not defined by our appearances but rather our common ideology.
Daphne said — I cover my head, not my hair, per the religious concept of “kisui rosh".
I thought women are supposed to cover their hair and men are supposed to cover their head?
Wow, I wish I was better at typing… Let me clarify: I cover my head as a sign of being married, not because I think my hair is “ervah” a private part of my body. The way I learned things… the only source for head/hair covering in the Torah comes from the "isha sotah" (a married woman) who’s head is uncovered to shame her. It actually says she was made to be "paruah" disheveled . Some say her hair was unbraided. From this we learn that her head must have been covered if it was then uncovered. As a stringency some women cover all of their hair because there was a women (blank on name)who the gemarah says was blessed with many learned sons because the walls of her home never saw her hair. I do not take on this stringency , although I would love learned sons. Rabbi and Rebbetzin friends, please help me out here with the textual sources here!!!!
Daphne, you did fine with your explanation. If I may add, as someone coming from the same camp — if one's concern is covering her hair due to "ervah" (nakedness), all of it (except at most a 4" segment, a "tefach") should be covered at all times, in all places, except perhaps in front of her husband. In her home, out of her home, doesn't matter. And how it is covered doesn't matter, so wigs, scarfs, hats are all cool.
On the other hand, if one is concerned about covering one's head as the Jewish symbol of being a married woman, but not as a state of immodesty, the laws are applied a little less stringently. I have always said that just as I wore a diamond ring on my left forefinger as the American/secular symbol of being married, I wore a hat or scarf on my head as the Jewish marker of being married. Because of this slightly different philosophy, I don't cover my head in my own home, regardless of who is there. Because while out on the street men need to know that I am spoken for and off limits, within my home it is self-evident. Also, another extension of this philosophy is that wigs are less appropriate as head-covering than hats or wigs. Doesn't mean women don't wear wigs on occasion, particularly if they feel they need to in the workplace, but just that a noticeable head-covering is preferable to one that blends in. I don't own a wig. A third difference that stems from this different philosophy is what happens if a woman is divorced. If the hair of a married woman is considered ervah, that doesn't change if she gets divorced. After all, she doesn't magically become a virgin again. But if head-covering is an indicator of marital status, then uncovering one's head is appropriate after getting divorced.
Not at all times, in all places. Only in front of men.
miriambyk,
Where is it found that covering one's head is a symbol of a married Jewish woman? Isn't it because a married woman's hair is considered ervah? If a woman gets divorced is she permitted to wear short sleeves? Is there a difference (Rabbi or Rebbetzin)? Short skirts? Who decides what is ervah or not?
If a married woman's hair isn't considered "ervah" why does it need to be covered?
As a sign of being married, as was the custom brought down through the "isha sotah" story. I will add that when I have company over to our home, I feel that the roof over my head and my husbands presence is symbolic enough of our union and therefore I do not cover my head. However, if I am opening up my home for a public event, like a school function, I do wear a head covering as it may not be as obvious to the guests.
What I've never quite understood is, for those people who cover hair because it is "ervah," why is an unmarried woman's hair not "ervah" as well?
I believe the "isha sotah" had her head uncovered to humiliate and disgrace her hoping that she would confess if she committed adultery. On ben Peleth's wife also removed her hair covering which saved On ben Peleth from being part of Korach's rebellion (parsha Korach). In both circumstances it appears that a wife's hair being seen by a man is considered 'ervah'? Is there another way to understand the halacha or minhag? Is it only symbolic of being married? Why would a divorced woman ever cover her hair? Does a widow cover her hair?
Hair becomes ervah when a woman enters a sexual relationship upon marriage.
Some hair covering thoughts of mine from awhile ago:
http://outoftheorthobox.blogspot.com/2011/07/bewigged.html
Zionism is definitely a huge part of my life. After World war two, my parents immigrated to Israel and my siblings were born there. I currently have a sister who lives there with her family and her son serves in the IDF. I guess my answers were personal, but I do think the ideologies are aligned.
I'm really surprised by your statement, Ruchi, that you see no distinction between Judaism and Zionism. I had always understood that there was a far right-wing branch of Orthodoxy [which I know is not the variety that you practice/affiliate with] that actively rejected Zionism, specifically the modern state of Israel, because it is a creation of man rather than having been brought about by the coming of Moshiach. That doesn't negate the love and longing for the biblical ideal of Eretz Yisrael and returning there someday in the right way, as evidenced by the songs and prayers and facing east etc etc, but specifically rejects the modern political state of Israel.
For the record, when I said Zionism/Tzionut.. my version loves both Eretz (land) Yisrael and Midinat (state) Yisrael…
I think I should clarify my previous comment by saying that what I mean by "Zionism" is, first, the word as it was coined in 1890 to describe the movement focused on creating a Jewish homeland in what was then commonly designated as Palestine, and second, support for the modern political state that arose as a result of this movement. Given our previous exchange on our respective definitions of "environmentalist," it occurred to me that we might be viewing the word Zionism through differing lenses as well.
🙂 good thinking!
You are right. I didn't even take that fringe element into account, my bad.
At this point in time, post-facto, I think that any Jew who loudly and publicly decries the existence of the State of Israel is doing something terrible. And I don't put myself and those people anywhere near the same boat.
I have my bones to pick with the secular state, but I'm not going to use this forum to air them. I guess that is where Daphne and I slightly diverge. That said, I have utmost respect and gratitude to those that have died for Israel. I pray and cry for the soldiers each time I say yizkor.
I am pretty curious about those Jews Bratschegirl refers to who are opposed to Israel's existence for theological reasons–I guess that makes them "religious anti-Zionists" in line with DG's clarification.
Then there are also Jews, mostly not O I guess, who are critical of Israel's policies and even of the identitarian self-styling of the Jewish state. That is not the same as decrying the existence of Israel, but I guess it can be misunderstood to mean that. Any thoughts on that?
Orthodox Jews (and anyone else, for that matter) can be Zionist, non-Zionist, or anti-Zionist. Zionists are discussed above. Non-Zionists are basically what Ruchi was talking about: They love the Land of Israel but have reservations about a secular state that does not abide by Jewish law. However, they do NOT want the state dismantled; instead, they want it to change its policies. In Israel, mainly for historical reasons (extreme anti-religious attitudes in the early Zionist movement and secularist coercion in the early years of the state) but also because of disagreements over certain issues today, many haredim ("ultra-Orthodox" Jews) believe that the government wants them to abandon their religion, or at least parts thereof. Therefore they might speak negatively about the state, but what they're really talking about is the government. They certainly don't want the country taken over by Hamas, Hizbullah, or the Palestinian Authority. These are people I would describe as non-Zionists.
Anti-Zionists believe that a secular Jewish state should not exist in the Land of Israel. I don't know what they want the state to be replaced with, or even if they have worked out an alternative. Maybe their opposition is entirely theoretical. I really don't know.
A negligibly tiny group of really radical anti-Zionists even demonstrate in support of Iran and want Israel to be replaced by a Palestinian state, but they are vehemently opposed by probably every other Orthodox group. They make the news sometimes, but no one (other than Ahmadinejad) wants anything to do with them.
DG, as usual, I love the way you sum things up.
I want to add something. When I was 18, I went to Israel for the year. It was my first time ever there. I was so, so confused by secular Israelis. I couldn't understand what kept them in Israel if it wasn't religious underpinnings. Frankly, I still wonder sometimes.
Don't a lot of those secular Israelis nonetheless like to live in Israel because they want to be in the Jewish state–where "Jewish" does not refer to religious per se, just as they are Jewish but not as a matter of religious practice? I think this goes back to how "Jewish" has different meanings, only one of which is about the actual practice of the religion, in my view.
First of all, most people in any country continue living in that country regardless of ideology. Not so many people move to another country unless they're in dire straits where they are.
Second, many so-called secular Israelis aren't really secular. They are really "traditional," i.e., somewhat observant. They believe very strongly in God and the Torah; they just don't live entirely according to the Torah (although they fast on Yom Kippur, they don't eat chametz on Passover, and they may even keep kosher).
Third, even those who don't believe in the Torah are aware that Israel is historically the land of the Jewish people. The Zionist return to Israel is a return to our ancestral land. The national aspect of Judaism is just as relevant to secular Jews as it is to religious Jews.
In the third category, when you say "historically," do you mean stories from the Torah?
At least the later parts of the Bible. Even people who doubt that God promised the land to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob recognize that the Jews (technically, Israelites) lived in Eretz Yisrael in the times of King David, King Solomon, etc., all the way through to Talmudic times.
Many people who fought or lost there lives for the establishment of the state of Israel were Holocaust survivors. No one can/ should judge them for their religious commitment. They are there (Israel) because they survived and then were courageous enough to keep living and fight for a Jewish homeland, for all Jews.
Daphne, are you responding to a comment that you see as judgmental vis-a-vis secular Israelis? I don't see one.
Hm, despite not believing that God gave the land to the Jews and despite not even feeling compelled by the historical connection Jews had to that land, I could still totally see myself living in Israel–apart from some insuperable problems with the political constellation (and then the problem of how I would earn a living and all, but I mean sheerly hypothetically). I admit I was just a short-term tourist, in most of the mainstream places, but it felt like one of the few places in the world where I know I could live.
Regarding Ruchi's comment about not understanding why secular Jews would want to live in Israel: I totally appreciated its decidedly secular-Jewishness (big surprise there, and I do mean Tel Aviv specifically as where I could live), the urban intensity, the totally weird combination of Europeanness and middle-easternness.
Maybe the point is that secular-Jewish IS still Jewish (for some of us), and a Jewish state could in that sense–that I know you don't really buy–be secular. Not sure if I'm saying this well.
I think Daphne was responding to my point about secular Israelis. Which is really a misnomer because they only exist in the past couple of generations. Until then they were European immigrants.
I am not judging anyone's commitment. I just would imagine America would be a more comfortable place to be a secular Jew than Israel. I know I'm getting uncomfortably close to the recent ad campaign by Israel aimed toward ex-pats which was, er, NOT well-received by its subjects.
SBW, in your whole comment you may as well have been describing any Jewish neighborhood of any city in Europe.
DG: you say even non-believers "recognize that the Jews (technically, Israelites) lived in Eretz Yisrael in the times of King David, King Solomon, etc., all the way through to Talmudic times." True or false, SBW?
I totally agree with SBW, those were exactly the feelings I had every time I went to Israel.
As for the difference with Jewish neighborhoods in Europe, it's precisely that it's not a small, enclosed area. The first time I set foot in Israel I had those "Portnoy's Complaint" moments: Every baker is Jewish! And every street cleaner! And every cop! And every bus driver! Everybody is Jewish, wahoooo!
Some were religious, some were not, but they were all Jewish and living in a Jewish land: in the rest of the world secular Jews wouldn't be living in Jewish neighborhoods, in Israel every neighborhood in Jewish (ok, not totally true, but ya'know…)
W: Your description is really vivid–Portnoy!!. But actually I didn't have the "wahoo" experience that you did with the fact that everyone is Jewish. Besides the overall cultural intensity, density, liveliness and the Euro/Mid-east hybrid thing, what I appreciated about the "Jewishness" of Israel is that it is so conflicted and totally heterogeneous. Old-timers, hippie types, chic folks, IDF soldiers, seculars, Orthos of more types than I even know, Holocaust survivors, Ethiopian-descent Jews, some people who lived there even before it was a state. Plus the Israeli Arabs, other nationalities living there, American-born. So the absolute disparities and patchwork quality were what gave me the "wahoo" feeling. To me it is a kind of allegory for what "Jewish" is. Also I found it easier to think about the Israel/Palestine conflicts, and my own conflicted views thereof, in the actual place, where I could see (albeit from my touristy comfort) what was going on in daily life instead of through news lenses.
Ruchi: It is as W said not just about neighborhood but about what I would call "a world" or a sense of a world. But yes, a few of the major European cities are appealing to me because they feel like "world". Not necessarily the Jewish neighborhoods though–just the ones that are dense, conflicted, heterogeneous, worldlike.
Whether Jews lived in now-Israel from kings to Talmudic era–I plead ignorance. I need a big timeline mural with all the events in different places lined up. I thought the Romans forced most of the Jews out around 70 CE, hence the diaspora (which is more appealing to me, as I've said before, as a historical Jewish story than stories about continuous Jewish habitation in now-Israel). And I think Talmud-writing is a few hundred years later than that. I await correction.
But frankly whether Jews lived there, or anywhere, in a continuous way during any era or forever is for me no particular big deal. Interesting historical stuff, but does not reach me emotionally.
I did, however, hear a lecture some time ago about how the Israeli national story of "Jewish return" to that land actually required a sort of "forgetting" or repression of some facts regarding a few small Jewish communities–and even apparently some harmonious Jewish-Arab communities–that had existed there for centuries before 1948.
SDB: that's what I was trying to say, but you did it so much better 🙂 My wahoo referred to the first time I set foot in Israel, and suddenly *everybody* was Jewish.
But it's true that what made me really fall in love was to see that everybody is Jewish, they all live in the Land, yet there are so many ideas about what it means and what it should mean to be a Jew. Some of those ideas I intensely disliked, some of those I loved. Just like I could feel simultaneously very much at home (I grew up in Eastern Europe) and very far from home (oh, the whiffs of the Orient).
And I surprised myself thinking "I could live here" ( TLV though. Jerusalem is just too complicated…), which is something I absolutely wouldn't have predicted before going there the first time.
BTW, if you like cities that feel like worlds, come visit me in Paris 😀
I would conjecture that another issue that ruchi and her friend daphne may view differently is how (or if) each gender may socialize with the other as well as "non-suggestive" touching between genders – ie a "social" kiss or hug.
Rena, you make a good point. Ruchi and I may differ on socialization… but I would say our opinion on touching (negiah) is the same. I do not condone touching before marriage. The common thought is that modern orthodox people are not/do not believe in “shomer negiah” this is an unfortunate misconception.
I know many MO who are not makpid on "social" negia – I assumed that there were rabbanim that approved?
Just to add a wrinkle: there is a difference between initiating social physical contact and accepting it. Many rabbis, not only MO but also some to the right, will permit, under some circumstances, the acceptance of some amount of social negiah to avoid embarrassing the (presumably)clueless initiator and/or for professional purposes.
So, for example, some people will not initiate a handshake, but will accept one rather than leave the person hanging. Same, potentially (though I'm sure more likely among MO rabbis), with a social hug.
I think some will also permit some otherwise-not-OK negiah to avoid offending non-religious family members to whom the rules of negiah might otherwise apply.
I think that people in Ruchi's circle would probably be more likely to go out of their way to avoid even asking for such permission and, even if they ask and get it, would probably feel more uncomfortable using it.
Yes. Good point.
"Even" I ascribe to this somewhat. I asked a rabbi once about a non-blood relative, an older gentleman who is so sweet and always greets me with a hug, and was told to be passive about it, but no need to rebuff/embarrass the guy.
Once I get a decision from a rabbi, I am perfectly OK with it. Not embarrassing someone is also Torah.
Going off topic, but returning to some older descriptions of what it means to you to have your mentor: Did you ask the rabbi because you weren't at all sure what was the right thing to do, or because you felt it would be ok to allow the hug and wanted his approval, or because you wanted to get a "rule" from him to then follow and be at peace with, or what? I am wondering if you had a feeling on your own about whether being-hugged was probably ok, and you wanted rabbinical permission, or if you really really had no feeling or opinion whatsoever, or if you felt it was not ok because a breach of the rule but the rabbi made it ok for you.
I ask this because it is hard for me to imagine not having my own feeling of what was best for the situation. But maybe there is a way for O Jews to suspend that kind of thing in order to maintain adherence to the rules and ultimately internalize them more perfectly by deferring to the mentor.
If you don't believe in God, then God's expectations of you are not going to be a factor in your decision. If you do believe in God, then God's expectations of you are a factor, and those who have studied the Torah more extensively know those expectations better than those of us who haven't. Also, we know that our desires can blind us to what's right (as in rationalization). So we ask. That doesn't mean we don't have any feelings about the matter. And some Orthodox Jews ask a lot more often than others.
In that particular situation, I asked because I knew that according to "regular" halacha it was not OK, but suspected there might be a dispensation here due to what I already knew about the passivity thing. In truth, I did want it to be OK because I really like this person, and hoped the response would come back as a yes, which it did. Sometimes I have a pre-existing bent, and sometimes I'm entirely neutral. The rub is when I really want it to be a yes, and it's not. That's where the growth comes from.
Maybe sometime you can write about those instances.
Here's an example:
There are two equally valid halachic rulings when it comes to handshaking with members of the opposite sex:
1. That it's fine, because it's a business-like gesture and therefore non-affectionate
2. That no touch should be permitted at all
(See: http://outoftheorthobox.blogspot.com/2011/08/shakin-in-my-boots.html)
When my husband and I ventured out of the Orthodox community, we were faced with this dilemma daily. We asked our rabbi, and I was sure hoping we would get a lenient ruling. Not shaking hands is so awkward and potentially off-putting, and right when you're meeting for the first time and they already think you have horns because you're Orthodox (my perception).
But we didn't. Our rabbi abides by the stricter ruling, and thus do we. You can't "shop around" and ask this or that rabbi who's famous for leniencies. It's just not ethical. You're supposed to pick and rabbi and follow consistently.
So, I follow that, and yes, it's awkward and weird, but I'm happy I have a rabbi whose rulings are almost always in sync with what "feels right" – even if it's not easy. And like I said above, that's where the growth comes from.
Isn't that the real reason behind those scarves and wigs–to cover up your horns? 😉
Thanks for the example.