My interview with my Chassidic friend Libby was such a sensation that I thought I might do a series on a variety of Orthodox people I know… problem: they all responded, “Well, I’m not as interesting as Libby…”
Which is OK. My point here is to show that there are lots of really nice, normal Orthodox people who like being Orthodox, and that there are lots of ways to be Orthodox, too. So I intend to proceed (without worrying about competing with the world’s fascination with all things Chassidic).
When Dr. Slaughter’s article about women having it all hit the fan, I read what was for me a super-interesting response on the subject from a Jewish perspective, written by one Tzivia Reiter. Tzivia, it turns out, is an Orthodox mom of young kids; a professional career woman; and, I noted with a touch of envy much admiration, a published author.
Well. I asked nicely, and this very busy and accomplished woman said yes. Thanks!
What I loved about interviewing Tzivy was her very regular-ness. I got this impression when interviewing Libby, too. While I could fill these interviews with stereotype-busting Orthodox women running for senate or Orthodox girls who are weight-lifters, and there are bloggers who are doing a great job with that, my point here is to find people (and not just women, either) who are REPRESENTATIONAL. Like I am. I’m an Orthodox woman who is deeply fulfilled in my life, and I know so many others who are, too. Likewise, I felt both Libby and Tzivy (and future interviewees) are speaking on behalf of many like-minded members of the Orthodox community. You’re not getting an exception: you’re getting a window into entire communities.
Tzivy is available to field comments and questions.
PERSONAL INFO
OOTOB: What is your name?
Tzivia Reiter, also known as “Tzivy.”
OOTOB: Where did you grow up?
I grew up on the Lower East Side of Manhattan.
OOTOB: Where do you live?
I currently live in Passaic, NJ.
FAMILY
OOTOB: What did your parents do for a living?
My
father is a computer auditor. He is also a Rabbi, and a very involved
father, from the time that my siblings and I were little until this day.
My mother is a stay-at-home mother, and is my role model for the kind of
loving and devoted mother that I wish to be to my own children.
OOTOB: How many children do you have? How old? Boys or girls?
I have 4 daughters, ages 1, 4, 6 and 8, B”AH [with the help of God].
OOTOB: What do you and your husband do for a living?
My husband works in computers. I work at OHEL Children’s Home and Family Services, a
social service organization that provides both acute services to
individuals challenged by psychiatric or developmental disabilities, as
well as services to individuals and families confronted by everyday
challenges
OOTOB: Are
you practicing Judaism in a similar fashion to how you grew up, or is
it different? If so, how so? How would you define your “brand” of
Orthodoxy?
I
grew up “FFB” (frum [Orthodox] from birth). I don’t like to use
labels when it comes to these things, but I would say that my husband
and I are (always doing our best to be) Torah observant Jews.
MARRIAGE
OOTOB: How old were you and your husband when you got married?
My husband and I had both been dating [seriously for marriage purposes] for approximately 10 years by the time we met – so you do the
math! In the Orthodox Jewish community, many people marry young, so
this was kind of an aberration, but it allowed me to develop myself
personally and professionally in a way I might otherwise not have done
had I married younger.
OOTOB: How do you and your husband stay connected while raising a busy large family and with all the community obligations?
This
is not easy at all. I always thought I would have a regular date night
when I got married, but I found that once I had children it was not so
easy to leave them at night when I was out working all day – either
because I felt too guilty or too exhausted. I
think this is an issue for so many working mothers – we do not give
ourselves permission to focus on our marriages. Time is at such a
premium, our jobs need us, our kids need us, that it can feel almost
indulgent to take the time to nurture our marriages. But if we take the
time to spend with our husbands (without the kids), it helps us stay
connected and close – which in turn strengthens both partners to handle
the daily challenges and stress that comes our way.
My
husband and I try to work at this, and make a conscious effort to set
aside time for one another. But we have come to realize that it doesn’t
have to be a big night out on the town (what’s that?) to make a
difference. It can consist of spending (telephone and blackberry-free)
time at home after the kids are asleep with take-out, or meeting for a
quick lunch during the workday. What has also helped is that we
recently started commuting to work together in the last year, and we
both really look forward to that time together.
OOTOB: How would you describe how you and your husband share work and parenting/household responsibilities?
My
husband and I both work and are both involved parents to our children.
We both spend time with our kids, are involved in bath and bedtimes,
and will alternate taking off from work as needed if our children get
sick.
I
think that the expectation in contemporary families today (whether both
spouses work or not) is that there really needs to be more of a sharing
of responsibilities. Traditional gender roles where the woman is
responsible for the mothering and household and the man is the primary
breadwinner, either don’t describe most families today or are not
realistic when so many moms are out of the house for so many hours a
day. The roles need to be more flexible and fluid. That having been
said, I think it is still true that many mothers including myself assume
a greater amount of the domestic and parenting responsibilities – we
have all the details in our heads about our children’s classes, school
supplies, playdates, carpools, doctor appointments, dinners and
everything else our families need to function.
This is true of the
women in so many dual working parent households. I don’t think this is
because we have to but because most of us wouldn’t have it any other
way.
For
Orthodox Jewish families there are many factors which come into play
when determining these shared responsibilities. There is definitely a
strong feeling that the Jewish mother is the spiritual and emotional
center of her home, and that is a big part of our identity as Jewish
women and Jewish mothers. It helps us transcend some of the mundane
daily tasks such as making dinner and overseeing homework and bedtime, and
provides meaning and direction amid the hectic pace and chaos of
everyday life. Most of us would not want to relinquish that.
There is
also the additional variable that men are required to daven [pray] 3
times a day, go to minyan, and learn Torah daily. This realistically
impacts their ability to be as involved in the daily household tasks.
What makes this work (or not work) is the extent to which both parents are
on the same page about these values, and can map out a schedule that
works for the whole family.
As
a personal example, my husband recently took on a new learning (Torah)
program which took up many hours in the evening. I was happy and proud
about his learning seder [designated learning time] as this is something
I value greatly, but I found that the evenings didn’t go as smoothly
without his help. He made some adjustments to his schedule, doing some
of the learning on his lunch break, which lightened the load in the
evening and made him more available to the children and me during the
hectic evening routines.
MOTHERING, WORKING, AND YOUR BOOK
OOTOB: What is your profession?
I work as a Director at OHEL Bais Ezra. My educational background is
in social work. In my professional role, I work with children and
adults with developmental disabilities and their families. We provide
housing, day programs, at-home services and family support services, to
name just a few. I love my job, which is more than just a job to me, and
find it to be very meaningful and interesting.
OOTOB: How does mothering fit in with your profession?
I
am fortunate in my workplace’s overall approach to work-life balance.
There is an understanding about the pressures of contemporary families
and the need for parents to be available for their children. In
addition, I do not work 5 days a week. This gives me flexibility if my
children need me to take a day off for a school event, doctor’s visit or
any other need.
OOTOB: What prompted you to write Briefcases and Baby Bottles, a book about Orthodox working moms?
I wrote this book so I could read it.
I
found that when I returned to work after having my first child, I was
very torn. I had always loved my work, but I found it very difficult to
continue working in the same way while simultaneously being the
involved mother that I wanted to be. There are only so many hours in the
day! As the years went by and my family grew, there was even more to
juggle. I
read almost every book I could find on balancing work and family, which
I found exclusively in secular bookstores. While some of those books
were very helpful, they did not address many of the concerns I had as an observant Jewish working mother: How could I juggle the many expected
communal obligations with work and family life? How could I make the
most of my time with my growing family of young children after a long
day of work? How could I prepare for Shabbos when I worked on Friday?
How could I fill my home with the warmth, spirit, and nurturing that
is the hallmark of the Jewish mother, when I am out of that home for so
many hours a day?
I
wrote this book so I could hear how other Jewish women managed to do
justice to the different roles they assumed: what were their struggles
as well as strategies that worked for them in balancing the different
aspects of their lives.
OOTOB: Is your book unique to Orthodox women, or are the themes universal to all working moms?
The
book features interviews with over 20 observant Jewish women, and tells
their stories from the front lines: the good and the bad, that which
devastated them and that which made them stronger. It is definitely
told through the lens of a traditional Jewish perspective. The purpose
of the book was to address some of the unique aspects of the observant
Jewish lifestyle as it pertains to working mothers.
Yet there are so
many challenges inherent to being a working mother that we all
universally struggle with, no matter what our background. I would like to think that any working
mother could identify with many of the personal stories and perspectives
that are featured in the book, and could gain insight from some of the
eternal Jewish sources that are quoted in its pages.
OOTOB: Any closing thoughts or remarks?
When the Anne Marie Slaughter essay came out about “Why Women Still Can’t Have It All,” it created a firestorm of discussion and debate about the contemporary
working woman, family life and work/life balance. Orthodox Jewish women
have what to contribute to this important discussion. So many of us
today are working outside of the home. Some women are supporting
husbands in Torah learning, while still others are finding they need two
incomes just to survive. While some women choose to work for personal
fulfillment, many others are driven into the workforce by sheer
necessity. I think it is important to acknowledge our place at the
(conference) table as we continue to navigate our careers while
simultaneously upholding our roles as mothers, wives, nurturers and
builders of the Jewish home.
Love these interviews! If you'd like a BT perspective, I'd be happy to participate.
Thanks, Heather! I do, but I already have someone lined up… thanks anyway!
"I have 4 daughters, ages 1, 4, 6 and 8, B”AH [with the help of God]."
I think here B"AH might better stand for "bli ayin hara" without the evil eye.
Thanks for the catch, Anonymous. I think you're right.
Thanks for the interview, lots of illumination here. And lots to admire.
Tzivy, can I ask an 'emotional' question–it is personal, so I understand if you don't want to get into that: what is your biggest conflict, your most frustrating burden? Do you have some resentments, or disappointments, that you struggle with in all these different arenas? Your descriptions sound like there is a lot of work to share and things to do. Is there some element that evokes a real conflict in your feelings, or does it really all balance out emotionally? Does the Judaism resolve those inner conflicts or does it evoke any?
I'm really interested in Tzivy's answer.
Question for you, SBW: what in particular was illuminating for you? Sometimes I'm so curious what is novel for people to read about and what's a "duh." Know what I mean?
Thanks for being ok with that question, Ruchi! It might sound like a pretty negative question, and I suppose it is, but I guess negativity piques my interest? For instance, in Libby's interview it came out that there are some struggles, e.g. the general Vishnitz prohibition on women driving is a frustration but she bears it because she believes it is part of the proper order of things. Her relationship to that conflict was to me fascinating.
Tzivy's world, in contrast, is [I think] not so very different from mine. So the illuminations were more subtle.
For instance, I sort of already knew, but nonetheless was illuminated by, Tzivy's reference to how feeling it is her Jewish duty to center her household and children made her deal better with the burdensomeness of some of the household tasks. Ok, maybe I read some stuff into that, she didn't say "burdensomeness". But I guess if I felt it was really God's idea that I be in charge of all that it might be a big hindrance to resentments when I do take care of all that.
I am afraid I'm going to offend with the following, so I hope it comes out the right way: what was mainly illuminating to me is that Tzivy's way of being O seems less shockingly different than my life. So it was sort of an illumination of NOT feeling very distant from an O description of everyday life. She has another set of obligations, choices, and advantages to deal with, but it doesn't seem as alien as I would expect.
I experience many conflicts and I do my best to manage them – some days more successfully than others! The whole working mom thing is something I constantly struggle with – feeling like I should be home when I am at work and vice versa. I do aspire to the ideal of the Jewish mother who is the emotional and spiritual center of her home – but I don't think there is only one way to achieve that for all Jewish women. G-d gave each of us unique talents, abilities and challenges and the way in which we are supposed to grow is unique to us. There are many times I think I am achieving what I need to and what G-d expects me to by working outside of the home (which arguably makes me a better parent)- and other times that I feel I should sublimate some of those aspirations for the benefit of my children and family. At the end of the day, I probably do a little of both. I do try to be so acutely aware of both my personal and divine responsibility to my children and family – to give them what they need so they become healthy, fulfilled and "mentschlach" adults – who will embrace my husband's and my religious beliefs not because they have to but because they want to.
SBW, did that answer your question?
I have one for you. When you say: "Tzivy's way of being O seems less shockingly different than my life" do you mean as opposed to Libby's way of life, or as opposed to my way of life?
Thanks for the answer, Tzivy.
Ruchi: Certainly Libby's way of life is really really different than mine. Your way of life sounds, from the blog, like it is more different from mine than Tzivy's is. It's REALLY different. In practices, like washing each kid's hands 6 times at wakeup. But perhaps most different from mine because you seem to have no conflicts. For you the Judaism seems to solve all the conflicts that could exist, whether psychically or in terms of organizing your time. I think for you Judaism is the solution to all those conflicts, so it is interesting to hear that an O Jew would consider herself a little conflicted while being a good O Jew.
Actually, I was wondering if Ruchi's and Tzivy's lives differ all that much. After all Ruchi works as well (I don't know if it's a salaried position but it seems like it requires quite a lot of involvement outside of home). And maybe Tzivy does wash her kids' hands 6 times, it's just not mentioned? Just like maybe Ruchi just doesn't mention possible conflicts, because she considers it's not the purpose of this blog? or because it's not something that she would like to discuss publicly? We only know as much (or as little) as the speaker reveals (consciously or not).
You are right. Maybe Tzivy also does the hand-washing and all the things Ruchi has mentioned over time. And Ruchi does seem to me to be remarkably unconflicted, but it might be that she doesn't choose to share those parts of her life.
I'm going to wager that Tzivy does, considering as she's Orthodox and all.
The irony is that I started this blog to bring down the walls, but it seems that with all my highlighting and explaining and de-mystifying what's different, maybe I'm simply erecting new ones.
In any case, this post is about working moms, so by definition the subject matter is more universal. I wonder if it would be interesting to highlight ways that we're similar (there are many) as opposed to ways in which we are different.
As far as my being conflicted. I am indeed remarkably unconflicted in my Judaism, a fact for which I am very grateful. That doesn't mean I don't experience conflicts. Tzivy, I imagine, is also not conflicted in being Orthodox – but all of our lives yield conflict. To some extent my faith system navigates me out of those conflicts, but that doesn't always make it *easy* to implement, even if it's really clear to me what the right thing is.
Another example.
I used to sleep in Saturday/Shabbat morning, as it was the one day a week my husband got going later than usual in the morning. He'd start services closer to 9. Now, he started a new study session, which means I get up at 7:30 on Saturday morning to be with the little ones.
Am I conflicted in this? No. I want to do it. He didn't force me into it. We're partners. If it were too much for me, he'd stop. I'm proud to support his Torah study, and he's proud of me too. Does that make it easy to get out of bed earlier?
NOT SO MUCH.
My choice of which, if any, conflicts to highlight is actually a sticking point with me. Maybe another post.
I do the handwashing thing too -). I also want to acknowledge that while I do find certain aspect of my lifestyle challenging, I do them because I think it is the right thing to do and what G-d expects of me. I think those observances are arguably more precious than the ones that come easily to me because they are hard won.
Thanks for these friendly answers! Again, I'm not trying to 'dig up' your conflicts with Judaism so much as I am trying to understand how it feels to be committed to your rigorous observance. My own relationships to big commitments tend to be conflicted (even when I'm deeply dedicated to the commitment), so I'm trying to figure out how you conduct your relationships to big commitments. So the example, Ruchi, of accepting the early Shabbat wakeup but still not enjoying it is EXACTLY what I mean.
And the handwashing was just the thing that came to my mind, it was something I never knew about before Ruchi mentioned it. I thought it might be on the far end of O observance–or aren't there different ends of O observance? I remember Ruchi indicating that some O women might be ok riding a bike with a skirt and leggings, and others not, so I guess that is more about interpreting modesty than handwashing, which is a yes-or-no practice.
Ruchi, I don't think you are erecting new walls. On the contrary, I think you are doing a great job at explaining and demystifying.
But in the process of explaining sometimes you mention things I'd never heard about (and sometimes neither has SBW, apparently) – and then I don't know if it's your particular stringency, or a widespread, common practice, or just a habit of yours. If you say "I always sleep with my window open" I might think there is an underlying religious obligation, whereas you simply tend to get hot at night. Or the other way round. And then if Tzivy doesn't mention her stand on windows, I don't know if she keeps hers closed, or if she simply omitted to mention hers are open too. And even then, maybe she also simply wants fresh air? 🙂
SBW: Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. Yes for modesty being a continuum and handwashing being a yes/no thing without a lot of emotional baggage. That said, some Orthodox Jews are lax about observances like that anyway. Maybe they're uninspired, don't buy into it, are lazy or forgetful, or just out of habit.
W, thanks 🙂 You're right. It's hard to know. Funny story: my husband has this [odd] habit of eating mayo on his challah at Shabbos dinners. It has happened to us that our guests (without a lot of Orthodox exposure) will ask what the significance is of mayo on the challah [um, none]… or even some of our guests have proudly reported that they have begun this auspicious custom at home!
So keep asking is my point! And I'll keep answering. Deal?
You bet 🙂
That reminds me of a story I read a long time ago (so long that I absolutely can't remember where or by whom):
A priest in a temple was annoyed by a meowing cat, so he started locking the cat in a closet for the duration of the service. Some time after the priest died, but the cat would still get locked up in the closet for the service. Some time later the cat died, so the community got a new cat, to be locked in the closet during services. A thousand years later theologians were writing elaborate treaties on the spiritual necessity of having a cat locked up in a closet during services.
So who knows, maybe a thousand years from now challah will only ever be eaten with mayo? 😉
That's hilarious!!
I know if I were a Shabbat guest and saw Mr. Ruchi with mayo on the challah I'd be thinking to myself, "So mayo is made of eggs, and the challah has eggs in it, and so all this time we were wrong to use butter because it doesn't come from a chicken but from a cow!" Also the cat story is funny, would love to know the author.
But theologically, wouldn't these stories be actually a big problem for Ruchi? And even not funny? Because they suggest that what contemporary O Jews' observance IS subject to historical contingencies and even misunderstandings. I know Ruchi has said that O observance is based on unchanging laws and so forth, but don't these stories actually show that unchanging practice is very unlikely? That what in one generation (or dinner party) is a contingent, local-custom issue can become in another generation (or family) seen as required O practice?
I have heard many similar stories — the shul where everyone has to bend their head to get through a low doorway, or the shul where the chazzan (cantor) gets the hiccups, etc. I think they are commonly shared within the O community as a cautionary tale — be wary of adopting new customs without asking the source. It is important to remember there is a difference between custom (minhag) and law (halachah) and stringency (chumrah), and even customs should be adopted cautiously. People should investigate the source of new customs — is it a random thing, like mayo on challah, or based on the teachings of a local Rav, or a stringency taken on by a particular community?
Practices do change, and I am always fascinated by the historical/sociological roots of various customs. Both halacha and minhag vary in different geographic regions, and they can all be valid O observances.
Mr. Ruchi! Love that. His name is Sruly. And in line with similar comments over on the wedding post, humor is a big part of my Judaism, especially about my Judaism. So I find that story really funny and have heard the "Jew" version of them too, as Miriam has. It's funny, cautionary, and inspiring (there is something cool, at least to me, about upholding tradition even if you're not sure why) all at once.
It's true that completely static practice is tough to maintain, and even my understanding of Orthodoxy acknowledges that there's been change. But what kind and to what degree is the question. So no, I don't find it problematic.
There's a big difference between practices discussed in the Bible and Talmud and practices with no known source. In fact, Jewish law requires knowing which are which.
The basis of Jewish law is unchanging but customs have certainly developed. Given that there have been so many different customs in different parts of the world, it's hard to imagine how anyone could think Judaism has never changed at all. Moses did not wear a fur hat (as many chasidim do) in the hot sun of the Sinai Desert.
Belief in the "custom" of challah and mayo is not likely to spread (no pun intended — but definitely pun enjoyed) too widely because there are so many other Jews around who don't practice it. These things CAN be confused with real traditions when they spread throughout a self-contained community.
In my Sunday school they gave us justifications for things that didn't seem at all tied to any known source, just practical things like "Because Pesach prep makes you do spring cleaning, which is hygienic too!" Or justifications that were symbolic but not really tied to any real reason. And yet the mix of symbolic and pragmatic and (maybe) commanded-by-God explanations for different things seems to me in retrospect to mix up custom, law and preference.
Lovely interview, and I could definitely relate to the making time for each other part. I find this to be at the same time very important and very hard to actualize.
I've written about this before elsewhere but perhaps it bears repeating here, the "working mom" conflict is in my opinion not limited to women (although I'll admit overwhelmingly more moms are affected ). Some dads find it hard too.
That is a really good point, and I think dads are not given enough credit for the conflict.
Thank you Tzivy and Ruchi for this interview.
Tzivy, could you please elaborate a bit more on the specific struggles that working O mothers face? The questions you mention don't sound very specific to the O lifestyle (in fact I have many non-Jewish working mothers around me that seem to have the very same concerns) – except the one about preparing Shabbos while working on Friday.
So I'm guessing it's not the questions that are different, but rather the answers you bring, and I would love to hear more about them.
Working mothers definitely face many of the same struggles, no matter what our backgrounds are. But there are issues related to our lifestyle that add to our daily juggle. Orthodox Jewish mothers tend to have large families with kids close in age, so it is a challenge to divide precious time between several children who all need your undivided attention. Many of us belong to close-knit communities and have large extended families – so there are constant family celebrations, community events etc. that require our participation. Many of our spouses spend time at shul and learning Torah, so they may not be as available to help with all of the domestic responsibilities – although this is very individualized to each family's situation.
Another huge issue is that there is a strong value of doing "chesed," acts of loving kindness within the community; so we are often getting requests to host Shabbos guests, cook meals for a new mother, attend a charity function, etc. which is not easy to juggle within compressed time frames. This is a big dilemma for so many women because the values of the community are such that chesed is not based on personal convenience but on stretching yourself to help someone in need. So how do we draw the line between doing this chesed for others, and figuring out when it's OK to set limits because we need to exercise chesed for ourselves and our families too. This is a huge struggle for so many orthodox Jewish women. The issue of making Shabbos is also huge. Imagine hosting Thanksgiving dinner each and every week. Shabbos is not just one day in the week with extra special meals, but is the pinnacle of a whole week that is spent in anticipation and preparation for it. But it is hard to have that level of preparation that we might wish for due to hectic schedules and so many other obligations, leading some moms to feel that they are falling short of an important ideal.
And that overriding issue that impacts all the others is the belief in the important role of the Jewish mother – her ability to influence the generations that follow her. There is no professional or personal accomplishment that can rival that. So this adds a layer of pressure, but at the same time, is also what helps guide us in managing all of these issues. It give a sense of meaning and accomplishment which helps us get through the hectic pace of our daily life. It also serves as a guidepost – at the end of the day, it is most important to my children that I help them have a feeling of fun and excitement over the upcoming Rosh Hashana holiday, and that I am patient and loving with them even when I am completely consumed with shopping, cooking and preparing. This matters more than a table full of gourmet food, although that would be nice too!
Thank you Tzivy for your answer.
You say that no professional accomplishment can rival the role of the mother. How does it work for fathers? What does Judaism place on the highest level? Being a father or learning Torah?
Also, do you (you as in you personally, or you as "O mothers") ever get frustrated that you have to juggle with work/home/kids/community etc, your husband takes on more studying, and is therefore less available to help? Do you ever feel that you too would like some free time for personal, spiritual advancement and learning, but for you it's a luxury you can't afford?
And on a completely practical level, how do you manage to give undivided attention to each of your children? Do you have a scheduled one-to-one time? An activity you only do with one of them each time?
I'm sorry for all those questions – Ruchi can tell you I'm the simple son (or daughter, actually) 😀
Interested in what Tzivy has to say, but I'll chime in with this:
No professional accomplishment can rival the role of mother, and no professional accomplishment can rival the role of father.
Case in point: my husband is both a rabbi and a mohel. 5 years ago his brother's wife had twin boys and they asked him to come to NY to do the double bris of the boys. However, it would conflict with a performance at my son's school where they kids receive their first either siddur (prayerbook) or chumash (Bible) – I don't actually remember which it was.
My husband and I discussed the dilemma, but didn't know what to do. He really wanted to do the double bris, as it was both a significant family celebration and a big mitzvah, but we also felt it was really important for him to be at my son's event. I would have still been at the event for my son. He asked my son, who was OK with him going. He then asked our rabbi, who advised him to stay home and attend my son's event.
While men have an additional spiritual obligation to study Torah, where it conflicts with being a father, he should consult with his wife and a spiritual mentor to navigate this. Both are extremely important, and it all depends when and how.
For example, my husband might delay or reschedule a Torah study session if one of his parents asked him to pick him up from the airport or if another mitzvah opportunity needed to be done then. That's all part of being an observant Jew: weighing what, where and how to balance various values, all of which are important.
Working and mothering is the same.
My husband's spirituality is my value too, and my spiritual and emotional needs are his spiritual obligations too. They all get filtered through the values of "what does God want from me right now?"
My husband's Torah study is not his "free time for personal advancement" – if he left the house to play golf or ignored me to watch the football game, that would be another conversation.
Hi W. You ask good questions. While I (and most mothers) would love some more free time, I do feel that I have plenty of opportunities for personal and spiritual advancement and learning through my role as a wife and mother (as well as my professional role). While it is true that I do not have the luxury of time, I do have many outside interests and have made opportunities to express them within the roles that I assume – one example is the book I just wrote – which I worked on at night after my kids were asleep and which I found very creative and personally gratifying. Admittedly, I can't go out like I used to or take regular outside classes right now while my children are young, but I am OK with deferring those kind of things for later.
I am not at all frustrated at the time my husband spends learning because that is a goal for both of us, and I am privileged to share in his learning. (If we were not on the same page, that would be another story). Like Ruchy said, a husband and wife share a spiritual mission – we are 2 sides of the same coin.
As far as one on one time with my children: I do it by staggering bedtimes and spending time 1:1 with each child on most nights. I also try to take one child at a time out on shopping trips and routine errands. I will tack on 1:1 time to doctor's appointments by taking that child out for ice cream afterward or to the park. I also try to give each child a day to themselves with Mommy every few months, which is always really fun and memorable. I am trying now to let one child stay up later one night a week (taking turns) for Shabbos cooking. It is not easy, but it is always on my radar to find opportunities for this kind of time, which really makes a big difference in enhancing the parent-child connection.
And here comes another question!
You say that you are "privileged to share in [your husband's] learning". Do you mean it on an abstract level (e.g. his learning is a benefit to your "family unit" as a whole. Kind of like Ruchi hiding her hair from everybody and not just unrelated men kabalistically advances the spiritual growth of her children), or on a practical lever (which I would imagine as your husband sharing with you the new things he learned – ranging from "guess what I discovered today?" to actually sitting with you and redoing the session).
Obviously it's a question to both of you. I don't have a very clear understanding of whether women pursue religious studies in an organized fashion once they are out of seminary and/or married. If I understand well you have no obligation to attend the services at the synagogue, but do you have women's study groups? do you discuss with your husbands the things they learn at their study groups? How does it work?
Both! You are spot on. We believe that my husband's Torah study brings blessing to our whole family. It is also a mitzvah in which he is obligated in a different way from how women are obligated, and thus we are helping him fulfill his spiritual potential. (Likewise, when my husband runs the household solo for 10 days while I lead trips to Israel, he is helping me fulfill my spiritual potential and aiding others in becoming more inspired Jewishly.)
Kabbalistically, a husband and wife are two halves of one soul. When one assists the other in fulfilling mitzvot, both reach their respective potential and retrieve merit from one another.
Women are not obligated in regular Torah study per se, but it is an extremely important value for them to remain inspired and educated in their Judaism. To that end, there are numerous classes and learning opportunities, whether in person or online, or on the phone. With a partner or solo. Here's actually a post along those lines: http://outoftheorthobox.blogspot.com/2012/01/5-ways-to-re-inspire.html
I'll speak for myself and my own marriage and community when I say that women's classes and learning opportunities are very well-attended, and lots of my friends are accessing classes online and on the phone. My husband will rearrange his schedule so I can attend a class and bring home CD's for me of classes I've missed.
It has always been important to me to be able to discuss meaningful ideas with my husband. We talk around the Shabbat table and try to take a walk on Shabbat to chat as well. We'll forward each other emails of interesting lessons and the like.
Thanks for asking – you know I love your questions. If you're asking it, others are also thinking it: guaranteed.
I hope not to offend, but I would appreciate aome clarity on the subject of working mothers. To start off, I am a BT for 15 years. I lean towarda modern orthodox. I personally do not believe it is in a child's best interest to have a working mother. I believe that a womans talents, ambitions and wants are to be put on the back burner for another time. That time being when the kids are raised. Why have children and not raise them yourself? My husband and I raised 7 children. There were many years where we went without luxuries, meaning a second car, larger home and vacations, so that I could stay home and do my job as wife and mother. Why is it so seemingly acceptable in our Jewish culture that a woman work outside of her home? I believe in men providing for their family and women being the home maker. Thanks for your feedback. Chava
Hi Chava, and thanks for your question.
You ask why it is so accepted in Jewish culture for women to work outside the home. I'm not sure if you mean Jewish or Orthodox. I will answer from an Orthodox perspective.
The reason it is accepted is because the Torah does not make strong statements about it either way. The Torah has no problem telling us what to do, so we can deduce that this is what's known as "divrei r'shus" – neutral areas where each person must decide for herself, based on a confluence of factors.
Since the Torah neither forbids nor commands mothers to pursue employment, each woman makes this decision based on practical, financial, emotional and psychological factors, and of course, in partnership with her husband if she has one. Many Orthodox women seek guidance from a spiritual mentor along the way, and many women also alternate between working and not working, depending on life circumstances.
One thing is constant from a Torah perspective: the most important job a working mother, or a working father, has – the most spiritual, and the most honorable – is being a parent. That value and esteem is above all else.
I'd like to respond to a question asked above by W: "Could you please elaborate a bit more on the specific struggles that working O mothers face?"
I'd like to chime in as another working O mother (of 4 children). I have found repeatedly in my nearly 20 years of professional life that taking time off to leave early on Fridays or for various Jewish holidays when work is forbidden is a big problem. Unlike Tzivy & Ruchi, I don't work in a Jewish setting. In fact, I work in an industry with very few Jews, and basically no O Jews. Wherever I have worked, I have been the only O Jew, and needing time off for Shabbat and holidays has always been an issue. Even when I have been very clear during the interview process about what accommodations I would need, and how I would be happy to make up the hours, after living with it for a short while my employers have always expressed unhappiness. And the fact that I am a mom in an industry with few working moms has just exasperated the issue — sick kids, late housekeepers, early dismissal days, school plays, etc. I am seen as a slacker even if I work harder than everyone around me. I have been reclassified from salaried to hourly at more than one position (even though my job description didn't justify it) because they didn't think I was putting in enough hours.
This fall will be the first time in over 15 years that I will get my usual pay for the full month of Tishrei (when all the Jewish holidays are). I finally have a job with enough vacation time that I will not have to take unpaid time off to observe my religion.
I love what I do, and being an O Jew is non-negotiable in my life, but it hasn't always been easy blending the two.
Miriam, that is a rough story. I would figure that everyone (even all kinds of non-Jews, unless maybe you live in a location where really there are NO Jews) would know, once you say you are an O Jew and need Shabbat/J-holidays off, what that means and that it is not flexible. Amazing that after awhile the employers really expected you to modify that. Sounds discriminatory to me. Congratulations on finally having the job that works with your observance.
FWIW, the biggest conflict has always been with (non-O)Jewish co-workers/supervisors. I think they have somehow felt threatened by my commitment and observance, even though I am very low-key and have no interest in proselytizing or judging.
Miriam, that is a really important point that was not addressed in the interview (since, as you noted, both Tzivy and I work for Jewish companies) and is a conflict for many, many Orthodox men and women that I know. Your experience of dealing with non-Orthodox Jewish superiors at work is not all that uncommon.
Thanks for adding your thoughts.
I want to comment on a few threads in the comments. One, while I don't want to diminish Tzivy and Ruchi's ability to work and be Orthodox, I agree with Miriam that it's a whole different ballgame working for a nonJewish/nonOrthodox organization/company. I've done both and I think it's a little misplaced to talk about the difficulty of preparing for Shabbos and Yuntif when you have all of Fridays off… I walk in the door about 2 hours before Shabbos starts – a little different from having the luxury of being able to cook all day Friday or any other day before a holiday.
I think the nonOrthodox readers would better be able to relate to a person who doesn't benefit from working for a frum organization – that gives, in my opinion, a real picture of what it means to be Orthodox and a working mom.
Furthermore, there are a couple other perspectives that have no yet been represented in this topic: fathers who do their share of the housework/childcare and mothers who have a career because having a professional life means something to them(not just to support their husbands or bring in additional income) and do things for themselves!
The bottom line is that (as everyone's said) every marriage is a partnership. In our family, I am really fulfilled by my full-time job. I'm the primary wage earner and get a lot of personal satisfaction from doing my job well and moving up the career ladder. I use my skills in the frum community when asked to help whereever I can and my professional skills and degree are really valued by my friends/neighbors. I also go to the gym four times a week, participate in a women-only play our community puts on every two years, attend a monthly video shiur (class) for women and a monthly "mommy's night out" with friends. Just because I am a mother of 2 kids 3 and under doesn't mean my life for me has to end. Orthodox Judaism is not about utter and total self-sacrifice for your kids.
However, I will say that my husband and I plan our days really carefully to make sure our kids are getting the attention they need and we accommodate each others' schedules. I have never been a morning person but to get all my gym time in I go twice a week at 6am (my husband has his morning chevrusa over to our house and they learn while the kids are sleeping) and I get home with enough time for him to go to shul in the morning before we both head off for work. I also go late at night after the kids are asleep (same for all my other "extracurriculars" :))
And my husband is a huge help around the house. I don't know how prevalent this is in our community, but my husband (who only works from 9-3pm as a teacher in a frum school) cooks when we need to, makes things for shabbos when we need him to, cleans the house (he likes things cleaner than I do so things fell out that way) and puts in a load of laundry when things start getting crazy in the laundry room. We strive for division of responsibility and we both pitch in to do our part. When i'm working 40 hours a week it's not unbelievable to think that my husband should make a quick (yummy) dinner. Why (as some of my friends do) force the mommies to stay up until the middle of the night to cook dinner for the next day when Tatty is just as capable of putting a chicken in the oven as mommy. He still learns with two chevrusas a day and works AND is finishing up his graduate degree! When there's a will, there's a way.
I think that our relationship shows that roles are changing in the orthodox community and i think for the better. And you don't have to only be 100% in the frum world to be able to juggle all that life/Hshem sends you!
Thank you for your important comments. I would like to clarify that in my workplace we do work on Fridays, as well as on Erev Yom Tov, as well as on Chol Hamoed. I am not sure where you received the impression otherwise, but we certainly do juggle Shabbos and Holiday preparations along with so many other Orthodox Jewish professional women.
As far as the sharing of roles in Orthodox Jewish households, both partners have to define their family and household responsibilities – spiritual, mundane and otherwise – and figure out together the best way to meet them based on many variables. Many of the women I interviewed in my book who had high-powered careers, had husbands who were teachers like yours, and/or had more flexible situations, which allowed them to pitch in with more of the household responsibilities and made the family situation workable for everyone. Many times the partner with the more flexible situation will be the one carrying more of the childcare or household chore load – but there are so many variable to consider and each family has to negotiate the sharing of responsibilities according to their personal needs, wishes and variables.
I definitely agree that when there is a will, there is a way – and it is possible for Orthodox Jewish women to participate in the workforce and have a professionally fulfilling career while at the same time meeting the needs of her children, her family, her community and herself.
AP, thanks for weighing in.
Just wanted to clarify something. I didn't interview Tzivy because I thought she had the hardest job and was doing the best balancing act. I interviewed her because firstly, she had quite literally written the book on the subject. In fact, I didn't even know what she did professionally until the interview was underway.
Honestly, I don't really think it matters, and I think the comparing goes right back into "mommy war" mode, which benefits no one. Which brings me to my second point, that I thought Tzivy's *attitude* about working as an Orthodox mom was not only representational of many, many working Orthodox moms I know (whether they are WAHMs or day school teachers or speech therapists or graphic designers or pediatricians), but ALSO a unique perspective for non-Orthodox working moms to consider.
The spirituality inherent in the decision is key, whether you work because you have to, because the job itself is spiritual, or the use of your unique talents and contributions to the world becomes a spiritual endeavor. It doesn't matter. The fact that spirituality is even a part of the conversation is what I thought might be interesting.
Oy… I ramble…
I could go on about my particular work setup, and why I work and what I do, but again, I don't think the specifics really change the general concept. Just my thoughts.