On my primary news outlet, Facebook, I came across a startling piece of news: not only do Mormons apparently convert dead Jews posthumously, but Anne Frank has been a recent candidate.
The reactions were quick and angry. Offended. Wounded. Outraged.
Me? I thought it was funny that anyone was wasting their time with this nonsense.
Here’s what I posted:
Re the Mormons, I don’t find it
offensive at all, because such rites don’t change anything.
To which the OP responded:
while the rite may be
meaningless I find the sentiment behind it offensive. Much the same way
I find it offensive when somebody tries to “save” me.
Me:
That’s a common sentiment, but one I don’t share. It’s like an annoying mosquito on the other side of a window. It can’t touch me.
OP:
I’m going to start thinking about it that way!
Random friend:
Ruchi, you sound very enlightened!
I like that girl.
***
My two teenaged daughters were shopping at a grocery store before Chanukah. One of the (non-Jewish) shelf stockers dropped something made of glass, and it broke. Instinctively, the dropper said, “Well, Mazel Tov!” and they started singing a Chanukah song.
This was not a Jewish store.
Why Jews say “Mazel Tov” when they break glass is a whole ‘nother post, but what interests me here was their quickly sobered behavior when they noticed my obviously Jewish daughters.
The laughing stopped, the singing stopped, and they quickly apologized. “Did we offend you?” came the question.
My daughters looked at each other oddly. Offended? They thought it was cute.
***
Do you think Jeremy Lin was offended by the Ben and Jerry’s fortune cookie ice cream flavor in his honor? The ice cream flavor was changed after “initial backlash.” As a Jew I wondered which segments of the Asian American community felt threatened by this.
If it would have been a Jewish sports star (ha) with a bagel-and-a-shmear in his honor, well, as a strongly identified
Jew, I think I would find that clever and amusing – though perhaps
acknowledging privately that it’s a rather shallow nod to my faith. But
hey – it’s food, not the high holidays.
***
Does the offended reaction serve us well? Is it justified? Wise? Due to… insecurity?
What do you think?
Couldn't agree with you more! But then again, I'm not trying to melt into society so that no one notices that I'm Jewish. I'm proud that I'm different and hold my head high wearing the badge of Judaism in what I hope is an authentic expression of Torah and the will of G-d.
Thank you Ruchi! I absolutly agree with you. I think our society is way tooo sensitive and always looking for a way to find something wrong with anything! Chill out, that's what I say!
How about a comment from the other side? I am Mormon and have been reading your blog since you started. I find it offensive that certain Mormons are hijacking others families and "saving" them. How rude and presumptuous! It is one thing to do this for your own extended family (and I have an entire Jewish line that is direct and can be proven) but to assume someone else"s family as your own is NOT right.
These things normally happen in Utah, Idaho, or Arizona (Utah is normally the biggie) as these are the most densely Mormon populated areas. Utah Mormons can be the equivalent of Kiryas Joel in intensity and it is annoying to those of us who cannot say "well they are Satmar where I am Lubavicher.
Jews who have died BECAUSE they are Jews should not have their souls hijacked even if the person has the best intentions. If they are so intent then the families can be contacted for permission.
This should be a no brainer to Mormons (in my opinion) as many Mormons were also killed just for being Mormons and refusing to denounce (although no even comparable to Jewish persecution). Until the 1970's there was still an "Extermination Order" on the law books for Mormons.
On a lighter note….I have heard that Elvis has been posthumously baptized over 50 times!
You sound just like me when jews do weird things 🙂
I'm flattered that you read my blog, and I find it highly laudable that a mormon would be outraged at the practice.
I also find the parallels between different kinds of communities within judaism and other faiths fascinating.
That said, I think the reaction from amormon and the reaction from a jew on this issue are different – and maybe, should be different.
I have a question – what happens if you "finish" baptizing your own family? Does the church teach that you should then move onto others? Or does nobody ever really finish…?
Just as a note, most Christian religions recognize each other (catholics, protestants of all kinds, etc)…BUT Mormons (latter day saints) are NOT recognized as a Christian religion…They are way out there on their own with scientologists.
So yes, I agree with you, they are like annoying mosquitos that can't touch you or posthumously baptise you!
Also, they came to an agreement to stop baptising Jews from the Shoah like 20 years ago..
Interesting. I wonder if my mormon reader would agree. Also, to be clear, I don't think mormons are like annoying mosquitoes. I think that people trying to baptize my dead people are like annoying mosquitoes. As opposed to dangerous alligators.
Mormons are not like Scientologists. They are not "way out there", it's just different from Christianity in the sense that their founder, Joseph Smith, felt that God told him to establish his own sect, now known as Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). Smith believed God charged him with a kind of reinvention of Christianity that sort of hearkened back to the New Testament days. I believe Smith is considered a prophet. This is a huge over-simplification, and I hope our new Mormon friend "ME" will correct any errors. Mainstream Christianity, from my understanding, does not recognize Mormons as Christian. Ah, well, to each his/her own!
Missionizing is still a part of the LDS Church, and you can form your own opinions as to whether this is offensive or not. I'm not in love with it, but I'm always happy to have a discussion with the Mormons who come to my door about my faith and share some of my faith's teachings with them in the form of pamphlets from my shul 🙂
BTW mainstream LDS Church broke from fundamentalist Mormons who still adhere to the outdated practices of things like polygamy.
I'm kind of fascinated by Mormonism and I have many good friends who are Mormons. I know they would not agree that they are "out there" like Scientologists. They consider themselves Christians.
I can't really decide how I feel about the baptism stuff. The way it was explained to me is that Mormons believe it only gives the person the OPTION of accepting the baptism in the afterlife. So it's still a choice for whomever they baptize. I figure hey, baptize away. On the off chance Mormonism is right and I'm wrong, I like that we get that second chance once we're dead. =) If on the other hand Mormons are wrong, it has no effect. So what's the real harm?
Is it disrespectful to my relatives who were killed in the Holocaust for being Jews? I suppose so. It's a little arrogant, but then again most religions are a little arrogant in thinking they have all the answers. Do I find it "offensive?" Not really.
I find what certain wild and out there type people do within a greater community or religion rarely reflects the values of the whole.
I find the practice "offensive" and actually kinda stupid. BUT–I also take into consideration the intention and as stupid and demeaning as I feel that it is, I also realize that in their heads (and hearts) they are doing something good for the Jews, and I think that's worth considering. It may not make the practice right, but it can show good intentions–even though arguably good intentions can often get people into trouble.
I can't hurt a Jewish soul, no of course not. But it does reflect the dangers to a living Jew who isn't strongly religious, as it can be used a conversion tactic. I'm not sure why this individual practice would be inviting to any Jew, but it's more that is goes hand-in-hand with other conversion techniques that certain groups of people will use on Jews (and others too!)
That said, one of my closest friends is Mormon and she's one of the biggest supporters I have in my life for finding my way to becoming an Orthodox affiliated Jew.
Personally, I draw the line at blatant Anti Semitic statements: The Jews have all the power/own the world etc. Phrases like 'Jewed him down' or other derogatory names. A friend was telling me about Pearl Perry whats her name and it irritated her that she kept referring to her life as 'orthodox.' My friend, a Geres was cringing every time she said it because Orthodoxy is a spectrum like every other thing on this planet. Of course, i am the one who hates labels and likes being called 'underconstructionist jew'
Becca most people don't do their own family's work when they go to the temple because once you get 300-400 years back it gets a bit tricky tracking down your history. Last names had a tendency to change from Old English spellings to a more modern phonetic spelling. Smythe became Smith, Rhyse become Reece, etc. We have a few lines back to the year 800 and with modern technology it has become easier. If you go and don't have any names for your own family they have a huge database of other names that have been submitted by others.
As for not being recognized as a "Christian" religion that is really by the fundamentalist Christians that we are not (and the Catholics). Usually it is due to us having the Book of Mormon which I find kind of funny because the Catholics have a different bible that the other "Christian" churches.
I would not put my church up there with scientology or Jehovah Witnesses but whatever. They have ideas that weird me out a bit and come off as cultish but from the outside I think every religion seems weird to others.
Elle you are completely correct. It is rare that the actions of a few reflect the community as a whole. This practice (Jewish baptism) has been something that the church has repeatedly told members to KNOCK IT OFF. You get the fringe who are convinced that anyone who doesn't believe as they do is wrong so they are going to be the savers of all those poor sad souls.
I am a bit different than many Mormons (IMHO). I respect anyone of any faith as long as they extend me the same courtesy. I would also never try and convert anyone unless they specifically asked me for information. If someone is content with their life who am I to tell them they are wrong? This applies to anyone whether Christian, Jewish, Pagan, etc. Our of my entire family (parents and 3 others siblings) I am the only person who attends any type of church. Two of my sisters are agnostic, my dad has no real beliefs, brother and mom are on the fence of Mormonism.
If I even moved to Utah (which would never happen in a billion, million, jillion years…to many Mormons, too much Mormonism) they would escort me to the border, hand me a Jello casserole and thank me for coming.
My best friend in the entire world is Catholic and this has been a total non-issue with us. She comes to my church all the time for activities to the point where many thought she WAS a member (they had moved from England). The church even helped her move because like me she care about the person and not the bullet points of religious nuances. I love her and her family as if they were my own and she is the same way to the point that they are the legal guardians of my children if anything happens to us.
Sorry so long but I am from the Midwest originally and we are talkers!
I did not realize that the church had actually told its members not to baptize Jews. Thanks for sharing that.
Since these conversions are done with PUBLICITY could we infer that it's an assertion of the superiority of the Mormon religion, rather than an act of kindness (from their point of view)?
I just wrote a long reply and deleted it. I don't think the majority of Mormons feel superior to others (although like any religion there are some who do). Personally I have never, ever thought that I was superior to anyone due to religion.
There needs to be more respect for others beliefs. So many wars and ills of the world are due to lack of understanding, respect or caring for others who believe differently.
It saddens me when people are judged by their religion and beliefs. We are so much more than that. Religion is a facet, sometimes a large facet, of a person.
One reason I was drawn to Ruchi's blog is that she seemed to be such a joyful person and loved being an Orthodox Jew. I have read other blogs where Ortho Jews seem so angry and rip Jews and non-Jews apart. This is true of Christian blogs as well. If religion brings you misery, anger and depression what is the point? I also want to understand other religions more.
Kathryn
Miriam–an act of that particular group of peope's feeligns about the superiority of Mormonism, yeah. But arrogance and belief in one's religion are a fine-line that many people aren't good at riding. I mean truth be told that's in Judaism too. Not that it makes it any better, it's just a reality. People convince themselves of all sorts of acts of "kindness" that are just sugar coated arrogance. It takes a truly reflective and enlightened person to rise above such nonsense (regardless of their religious affiliation!)
I just wrote a long reply and deleted it. I don't think the majority of Mormons feel superior to others (although like any religion there are some who do). Personally I have never, ever thought that I was superior to anyone due to religion.
There needs to be more respect for others beliefs. So many wars and ills of the world are due to lack of understanding, respect or caring for others who believe differently.
It saddens me when people are judged by their religion and beliefs. We are so much more than that. Religion is a facet, sometimes a large facet, of a person.
One reason I was drawn to Ruchi's blog is that she seemed to be such a joyful person and loved being an Orthodox Jew. I have read other blogs where Ortho Jews seem so angry and rip Jews and non-Jews apart. This is true of Christian blogs as well. If religion brings you misery, anger and depression what is the point? I also want to understand other religions more.
BTW I have NO idea why I am on there as "Me". My name is Kathryn btw.
Ruchi, I'm curious. How did you/your daughters know that the shelf stocker in your second story wasn't Jewish? I can see where a couple of non-Jewish stockers might have learned a Chanukah song somewhere, but knowing about breaking a glass at a Jewish wedding is, at least based on my experience with non-Jews, relatively niche.
I double- checked with my daughter and it seems I got the story somewhat wrong: the shelf stickers were black (yes I know there are black Jews, but I my neighborhood we usually know who's Jewish) and when the glass broke, one said "happy Hannukah!" Then the other one shushed him when he saw my girls. When my girls got to the checkout, the first said "I told him not to say that. Anyway, it's the Irish that throw glass (!)" They then asked my kids a bunch of questions, like if they go to private school and are sheltered, and congratulated them on staying in school.
Excuse typos…working off my phone
I agree that it's silly to get offended about the baptisms. That would be like saying we believe the baptisms "work" and do something to the dead person. I don't believe in Mormonism, so I just view their baptism ceremony as a ritual that makes Mormons feel better but doesn't harm anyone else.
That's exactly how I feel, Sarah.
What about Orthodox people who try to convince families not to cremate their dead even though that's what the decedent wanted? Is that not disrespectful also?
Anonymous, I posted your interesting question on my Facebook page; feel free to see the discussion there.
In my opinion, there are a number of differences.
Firstly, if you go back to the original post I am NOT offended by the Mormon debacle and therefore don't think someone should be similarly offended by your scenario.
Also, a Jew trying to encourage another Jew to act more Jewish, while it must be done with care, wisdom and sensitivity, cannot be compared to a member of another religion trying to influence someone Jewish (whether with or without his knowledge) in another faith.
Why cremation is foreign to Judaism may just be the subject of a future post.
I can see how someone would find the Jeremy Lin ice cream flavor offensive. I don't think it's exactly comparable to bagels. Lots of Chinese immigrants go into the restaurant business because they have few other options for earning a living–kind of like how many Jewish immigrants worked as tailors or garment factory workers in the early twentieth century. It's not that Jews all love sewing, it's just that that was one of the few jobs open to them. It would be offensive to honor a Jewish athlete by invoking the stereotype of the garment factory worker, and I think some people are similarly offended that Ben & Jerry's would reference Chinese restaurants in its tribute to Lin.
Didn't make that connection at all.