Actual conversation:
Rabbi, I have a silly question. So this weekend we were away for a friend’s son’s bar mitzvah, and Saturday morning I went out for a jog.
So there I am, in my shorts, and, well, you know, and my route takes me right past the local Orthodox synagogue, just as everyone’s leaving.
And so on the one hand, I want to say “Good Shabbos,” or “Shabbat Shalom,” or whatever, but would that be weird, because obviously I’m like, jogging, and not, well, in shul… And I’m not dressed modestly so would that make people uncomfortable? Or should I just say good morning? I mean, how would that be viewed by the Orthodox?
Saturday joggers and Orthodox shul-goers: what say you?
Rabbi, I have a silly question. So this weekend we were away for a friend’s son’s bar mitzvah, and Saturday morning I went out for a jog.
So there I am, in my shorts, and, well, you know, and my route takes me right past the local Orthodox synagogue, just as everyone’s leaving.
And so on the one hand, I want to say “Good Shabbos,” or “Shabbat Shalom,” or whatever, but would that be weird, because obviously I’m like, jogging, and not, well, in shul… And I’m not dressed modestly so would that make people uncomfortable? Or should I just say good morning? I mean, how would that be viewed by the Orthodox?
Saturday joggers and Orthodox shul-goers: what say you?
I would love to hear a "good Shabbos" from a jogger. It would totally make me smile.
We say Good Shabbos to every Jew whether they are walking to shul or weeding their flower-beds. Shabbos is Shabbos and a Jew is a Jew no matter how they occupy themselves on Saturdays. So why not indulge one another with a smile and some simcha on this special day? 🙂
Hi Ss and welcome to OOTOB. Question: I assume you are Orthodox, and when you pass by someone weeding his flowers, how do you know if he is Jewish?
I know a lot of the people in our neighborhood. And I guess one just develops Jewish radar over time. Sometimes I shoot out a good morning and the person says back, "good Shabbos!" It's like we're both simply bursting to share a Yid moment. I love it!
Love it.
I totally agree. I live in a community with a lot of Israelis. They may not spend Shabbat the same way I do, but they know it is Shabbat, and they clearly appreciate being acknowledged, not ignored, by their neighbors.
Miriam, I think Israelis are different because you just know Shabbat is at least on their radar screen. With Americans… not always. Maybe I'm wrong.
I also say something (Shabbat shalom if I have reason to suspect they are Jewish, hi or good morning/afternoon/evening if not to everybody I pass when I'm walking. A complaint I have heard repeatedly from non-Orthodox or non-Jewish people in the community is that the O Jews act as though they don't exist.
That's such a nice habit. We aim for that, too. Surprising how many people don't respond. Matbe they're surprised?
I would feel a little self conscious if I was jogging/walking by a group of Orthodox Jews on Shabbat, but I would try to say Shabbat Shalom anyway. My mother (unfortunately) tends to have a negative perception of Orthodox Jews, so whenever she says Shabbat Shalom to one and they respond, she is always very pleased. However, conversely, when she says Shabbat Shalom to one and they ignore her and look away (which, unfortunately has happened with a few men a couple times), she launches into a whole speech about how orthodox men don't treat women well and it tends to spiral downhill from there. So, I think any type of acknowledgement (Good Shabbos, Good Morning) from an Orthodox person to any person (Jewish or not) is a great thing, it makes Orthodox Jews seem approachable and friendly to people who (often times) know nothing about them.
I think it's important for Orthodox Jews who don't regularly interact with the wider world to understand just how loaded their reactions seem. When someone ignores me, it's not fraught like that.
This is a very well-timed post for me. I had a similar question come up TODAY, and I rarely have any situation where I interact with O Jews. And in my experience in the regular world they don't seem to want to interact with me, especially the men.
So I'm traveling in Europe this summer and today was removing my luggage from a big-city train station locker, and I noticed an O couple with baby were struggling with figuring out change for the lockers, I looked over at them sympathetically, and the man awkwardly asked me in poor English if I could make change for them (lockers only accept change, they had only bills). I tried answering with the local language, in case that would be easier, but they didn't speak that. I handed the man the change they needed for the locker (a few bucks' worth), but they didn't have any small bills to trade for it, and they seemed to feel very embarrassed, and I just smiled and told them not to worry about it, and got ready to go. Then the man became even more embarrassed and insisted on giving me a few US dollars that he had. I said it wasn't necessary at all, but he insisted. I asked where they were from, they said Israel, and I said how I found Israel very wonderful and spoke the few non-prayer phrases I know (which include–absurdly–'kelev gadol' and 'yeled katan'). They were charmed, the man told me I should be their guest next time I visit, smiles, and goodbye.
So what was in my head was: "Wow, I never talk to O people. Can they tell I'm Jewish? Is that why they're asking ME for change (not that anyone else was around)? Can I hand him the change or is it offensive if I end up touching him a little? Should I not make eye contact? Should I say, "don't worry about it, we can consider it 'Jewish unity' or is that too corny? Did they think I was brushing off their attempt to give me the dollars because I thought they were poor? Was it really embarrassing to them that I was wearing a sundress and sandals and they still had to talk to me and even sort of touch me? Was it weird that I made small talk with them? Should I have said I'm Jewish just so they know? Or would that be worse because then they'd see me as some kind of immodest failed Jew?"
Itching to answer your questions (what a cool interaction and how providentially timed) but I don't think my responses would be as meaningful as a layperson's here. So I will wait and see if someone else picks it up…
allright, I'm done waiting.
Can they tell I'm Jewish? Probably not until the conversation started.
Is that why they're asking ME for change (not that anyone else was around)? It could be they suspected it (I know my "Jew-dar" is raging full-blast whenever I'm in public places) and if so, would definitely have preferred to ask you, a fellow Jew.
Can I hand him the change or is it offensive if I end up touching him a little? That probably would have bothered him only if he is Chassidic.
Should I not make eye contact? Eye contact is cool. A very small percentage of very Orthodox men don't meet the eyes of women for modesty reasons (more in Israel than anywhere else) but you have no need to follow suit even if they are among that small minority.
Should I say, "don't worry about it, we can consider it 'Jewish unity' or is that too corny? Not corny at all, so very sweet and kind and unifying indeed.
Did they think I was brushing off their attempt to give me the dollars because I thought they were poor? Only if they were poor and already self-conscious. It's not fun for anyone to run out of cash in public, though, poor or not.
Was it really embarrassing to them that I was wearing a sundress and sandals and they still had to talk to me and even sort of touch me? Again, probably only if they are Chassidic. Different men, depending on their sensitivity to modesty and what they are used to seeing in their daily lives, would feel differently about that. Nevertheless, all would acknowledge that it's not your responsibility, in a public, non-Jewish space, to accommodate that.
Was it weird that I made small talk with them? Should I have said I'm Jewish just so they know? Or would that be worse because then they'd see me as some kind of immodest failed Jew? Not weird: wonderful. I'm always into Jews outing themselves to each other so we can join more closely as a family, which is what we are. Immodest, failed Jew: unless they are living under a rock (not Fraggle Rock, I know you love pop culture refs from me 🙂 they are fully aware that there are Jews of a wide variety of belief and observance, and that everyone has a backstory of which they are unaware.
Thanks for the responses. I didn't know that Chassidic are more likely to be sensitive to touching/modesty, I thought there is a spectrum within both Chassidic and non-Chassidic where some would care more and some not as much (not sure of the categories). He had the thick velvety yarmulke tipped back and the black hat tipped more forward, maybe payos. And in fact, I didn't think they were poor, I just worried that they might think I thought that (!). In the end I think I felt solidarity with them as much for having a baby and trying to deal with the frustrations of traveling in a foreign country as much as us all being Jewish. Perhaps more so the former, in fact, because babies and traveling frustrations are not different the way that our being Jewish is (for me) so different.
I am now going to look up Fraggle Rock, which I never heard of! And then go to bed. It's almost midnight here.
Fraggle Rock was a childhood staple 🙂
I am simplifying somewhat. There is, indeed a spectrum, and individual sensitivities too, but the generality is a fair one. Europe has large Chassidic communities (London, Belgium, Switzerland) so it's not unlikely that your MOTs would indeed be Chassidic. Peyos would be a giveaway.
Add this to your Hebrew vocab: Layla tov (g' nite).
Boker tov from my current time zone! I was a Camp Wise kid, so there are indeed some other phrases filed away behind 'kelev gadol'. When we lived in Germany a few years ago, I passed by a Jewish kindergarten every morning after dropping my kids off at school, and wished the German cop "guten morgen" and the 2 Israeli soldiers "boker tov".
OK, my Fraggle Rock blind spot, I now understand, is a matter of age difference. But that means you did have tv growing up?
I hope you sometime post something on Chassidism. Not sure if any of the regular commenters are Chassidic, but I'm curious about the 'small differences'.
I did have a TV growing up but my parents were quite selective about what we were allowed to watch. Basically, the Disney movie, Cosby show and the like, and, yes, Fraggle Rock was a favorite. Then I also babysat and watched all kinds of other interesting things 🙂
I would love to interview a Chassidic couple or get a guest post. Would love to work on that. Some of the regulars here belong to Chabad which is technically Chassidic but different than other Chassidic groups in the areas that people find particularly interesting: insularity, reticence to project to the outside world, Yiddish as a first language, dress restrictions for the women, etc.
lay person chiming in here to respond: ditto on everything Ruchie said 😉 SWB, I'm glad you didn't let your questions get in the way of a positive mitzva moment. (Judging from your description, sounds like he was Chassidic. Non-chassidics don't have their kippa stick out of the hat in the back. Also, I'm guessing the brim of the hat was bent up as opposed to bent down in the front, fedora-style.)
I was looking for an online guide to the different styles of different kinds of O Jews. I always wondered about the kippa sticking out the back thing. Curious about the reasons for those small variations among hats and so forth.
Here's a question I also had that might not make it past the modesty filter, which I would respect:
I had my period at the time of the interaction. I was wondering if the slight hand contact at passing the money would be for this reason an even bigger problem for him than otherwise? Not that he knew, of course, but in principle.
In response to your former comment, did you find anything good? I hope to incorporate some of that in my interview, which I have few leads on so far. Ironically, I did a search too and my filter blocked my search due to it being categorized "Alternative Spirituality/Occult." Ha ha! In any case, after unblocking the search I still didn't locate anything useful.
In response to your second question, gosh, I like my new title of Modesty Filter (caps mine) – makes me feel important. Your question is based on a not-uncommon misconception. The short answer is no, that would have nothing to do with it – having your period would only impact your relationship with your husband, not with anyone else.
But I'm in middle of a book called "Jew in the Lotus" by professor Rodger Kamenetz, and he makes the same mistake, citing (p. 22) "…customs, such as the refusal of Orthodox men to shake a woman's hand. I knew there were reasons for it: if she were menstruating they could not touch her, nor could they ask her point blank."
Um, not. (Also women don't shake men's hands either, so…)
I address the touching issue here: http://outoftheorthobox.blogspot.com/2011/08/shakin-in-my-boots.html
*non-prayer HEBREW phrases I know
I wondered about this so often when I lived in LA. I was always too self conscious to say anything! I'm interested to read everyone else's responses. Are there any orthodox folks who'd think it weird?
Becca, meet Anonymous (2 comments down)!
In answer to your question: maybe…but I think most would be touched.
B"H I have picked up the good habit trying to greet people first, Jew and non-Jew alike. So when I'm walking on Shabbos I wish the non-Jews who cross my path a hearty "good morning" or "good evening." A few Shabbosim ago I was thrown off when I passed a lady doing gardening work and wished her a "good morning" and she responded with an enthusiastic "Good Shabbos!."
It was kind of like a Kedushas Levi moment, thinking, "Ribbono Shel Olam, here is a woman who is gardening on Shabbos because she doesn't know any better and yet she is obviously so very proud to be Jewish and to let me know she is Jewish! How great are Your people!"
Surely I must have name-dropped somewhere on this blog that the Kedushas Levi is my direct ancestor nine generations up 🙂
And I've had similar experiences, but the "good shabbos" is sometimes a bit accusatory, like "it's my shabbos too!" (My thoughts: I didn't know if you were Jewish…)
The friendliness is great. But the post seems to confirm my idea that the O Jew will just think "this poor Jew, she doesn't know any better", so I'd rather in that case NOT 'out' myself as a Jew to an O Jew, whether while gardening, jogging, wearing sundresses, or what-have-you.
Presumed assessments of "Poor Jew" go both ways… It's what I think people are thinking of me when it's, say, 99 degrees out and I'm covered up. Shame for that to inhibit connection.
Point made. I see it.
Speaking for myself, I don't think "poor Jew", I think, "Oy, that must be hot." I will admit to thinking, "Poor kids. That's a lot of clothes for a summer day, those socks must be itchy." But that kind of pity for them being hot is not a pity for their or their parents' "not knowing better". Maybe for some people it is though.
And speaking for myself, I don't either think "poor Jew" – I think, how cool that this Jew is not too intimidated or scornful to want to connect with me.
As an O Jew with non-observant friends and family, I would like to suggest a modest reframe to Anonymous above. Can we learn to respect the possibility that the Jewish neighbor is gardening on Shabbat not because she "doesn't know better" but perhaps because to her tending to a garden is part of celebrating Gd's universe, changing her routine, or relaxing, and therefore a CHOICE of how to spend Shabbat? No,it is not halachic, but does it really diminish my halachic observance if I acknowledge someone else's right to choose to observe differently?
Miriam, while I think that the percentage of Jewish gardeners/joggers on Shabbat who have made that calculation is quite tiny, I think you hit on something extraordinarily important that I think about all the time:
Does it really diminish my halachic observance if I acknowledge someone else's right to choose to observe differently?
This is the crux of this whole blog. Me acknowledging that everyone has free will to act and believe as they choose, even if I privately "believe" or "know" or whatever you want to call it (I choose to say believe because it's less confrontational) that it's not halachically correct, is not problematic. That's because God gave us all free will in the first place. It's built in to Torah philosophy.
Some people are scared that this smacks of pluralism. I disagree. Pluralism means there are many correct ways (or even all ways have validity). Free will means everyone has a right to do what I think is incorrect.
The Torah does teach us to be responsible for a fellow Jew's actions, but that it must be prompted entirely by ahavat yisroel – because I love him and care about him and his well-being.
so garden weeders here, tell me if I'm right – maybe the crux here is not to fear which words I use to greet my fellow Jew but to work on my feelings about him at the time first?
Ruchi, how do you consider someone's actions to be "incorrect" and still not judge them? When I see someone whose actions are often incorrect, according to my assessment, I will either judge them or pity them. I'm thinking of people who parent poorly, are unethical, irresponsible, etc. So why would we not judge or pity someone who we thought was constantly doing wrong things on shabbos?
I think this is one of the most important questions we need to ask ourselves. In fact, instead of answering you, I am going to dedicate a post to just this. Thank you for articulating it so honestly.
Rena, I await the garden-weeders' responses, but meanwhile, your question reminds me of the Torah teaching that, "Just as water reflects back the face that faces it, so too the human heart" – that if we emotionally are broadcasting love and acceptance, the vibes will be perceived and re-reflected.
Not a literal garden-weeder but for the purposes of this question I fit the bill. Yes it is not the words but the 'broadcasting' that are more important. "Caring about my well-being" and "love and acceptance" are all good, but a lot of weight to put on a short greeting. Just casual-friendly would be the least encumbered encounter. For me.
I live in an wonderful community where people still greet each other on the street. While walking to shul it is not uncommon to be greated with Good Shabbos from the Israeli guy walking his dog or the young kids (not Jewish) who just wish you a good morning. People wave as you drive by in your car, even if they don't know you. I am really lucky to have found this little pocket of good people and this is in LA suburbs!
Anonymous, meet Becca (2 commenters up)!
The one qualifier I would make to my above statement is that whereas I would be delighted if someone not visibly Shomer Shabbos would wish me a good Shabbos, I would not offer the same greeting to them first, out of fear of embarrassing them (like maybe they would think my mentioning Shabbos would be some kind of implied rebuke, which of course would NOT be my intention).
Does this make me seem unfriendly or insular? If, at the end of the day, you have no idea what's going on in my brain, and you just see me walking to shul in my sheitel and long skirt, and I don't wish you a good shabbos first? Is just a smile OK?
Implied rebuke has certainly crossed my mind.
All of the frum Jews I know are happy to be wished a good shabbos no matter who does the greeting. They are all well aware that there are non-observant Jews out there (who still know that it's Shabbos) and they also encounter immodestly dressed people on a daily basis – they don't live in a bubble, after all. All in all, I think the greeting is generally appreciated. As for Rachel's comment above, I don't know anyone who would feel rebuked by a "Good Shabbos", but maybe some would. It's very sensitive and thoughtful of you to consider that angle.
I concur! (About the first part.)
as the shul-goer, I also have this dilemma. somehow, I never thought of the middle of the road solution of a simple "hello" [to the obviously Jewish lady weeding the garden] instead of the slightly rebukeful "Good Shabbos". thx for the perfect solution. 🙂
Curious if the non-Orthodox members of the thread would read rebuke into the Good Shabbos greeting, or is that an Orthodox, unsubstantiated, fear?
It would all depend on intonation and facial expression. Obviously, raised eyebrows and haughty tone would mean rebuke. Friendly smile or otherwise benevolent look would not. The problem is that there is no 'neutral'. An unsmiling or pro forma 'good shabbos' would feel like a rebuke, or would at least make me uncomfortable, even if that person is just not a smiler in general (which I wouldn't be in a position to know). I guess that puts a bit of a burden on the O person wanting to definitely not look reproachful to seem more friendly than s/he might usually.
Back to my point earlier: most Orthos have no clue just how much rides on those split-second encounters
I would disagree with this- I think I have a good idea of how much rides on these encounters, and therefore am scared speechless (literally!) most of the time.
I agree with "should be working." really though I don't think I'd judge orthodox as a group from one little interaction like that. I am comfortable with my (lack of) Shabbat observance so I don't really mind if somebody tries to give me a snide "good shabbos" and unless they said it REALLY sarcastically I doubt I'd even interpret it that way…
Funny. I always give a hearty, friendly "Good Shabbos" or "Shabbat Shalom" and my husband gets very uncomfortable with it. He thinks the other person will feel judged. I think that if I'm not judging that will come across in my greeting. I hope I'm right.
When I was in graduate school in the UK, a Hasidic group of some kind (Satmar, maybe, based on the shtriemels, but I'm not sure, because the kids, at least, spoke English) had rented out part of the university for a week or two for some kind of program. The section they were renting happened to be near the library, so a friend had encountered some of the Hasidic kids when she was up that way to check out some books. She had been put off because the kids were making derogatory comments about the non-Jewish folks around- loud enough that the subjects of those comments could hear, but none of the adults in the area did anything to discourage that behavior.
Anyway, it was Saturday, and I was heading up to the library myself to do some research or something. As I'm making my way there, I happened to pass a family from the Hasidic gathering- mom, dad, several kids. Without even thinking about it, really, I wished them a "gut Shabbos." They were visibly startled (and in fairness, that university has a tiny Jewish population), but responded in kind, and it was a nice interaction. In retrospect, I'd like to think that if those kids were part of the group making fun of the non-Hasidic folks earlier, maybe I gave them something to think about. If not, I at least shared a Shabbosdik moment with a family whose religious outlook and lifestyle are very different from my own, which I think is valuable. I didn't even consider the fact that at the time I said "Gut Shabbos," I was wearing jeans and hiking up to the library; it was Shabbos, I encountered some Jewish folks, and it just seemed like the nice, polite thing to say.
For me, I try not to let a specific interaction with any group speak for the group as a whole, because people have bad days, other things on their minds, whatever, whether they're Orthodox Jews or Chinese people or Muslims or whatever. If I notice a persistent pattern, that's a bit different, but it's usually more productive to take people as they are. I will say, though, that as a non-Orthodox Jew, I would be really bothered if I detected an attitude of, "Oh, that poor Jew doesn't know better than to [weed the gardens/daven at the Conservative shul/drive a car] on Shabbos." I'm not a complete neophyte simply by virtue of (consciously) choosing to be something other than Orthodox, and I don't find that kind of patronization especially helpful.
Of course, where I am now, I'd kill for anyone to wish me a Shabbat shalom or something, so I suppose beggars can't be choosers!
Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I agree wholeheartedly about the patronizing attitude. No one wants that, not from those more or less religiously observant. And I totally do believe that you gave them something to think about.
Anyway, Shabbat shalom in advance!
Love this discussion.. reminds me of a time I was parking my red car a block from the Shuls on Shabbos, trying to be discreet and around the corner walks a family member (who is tolerant and accepting of me) and her future Machatainista from Lawrence, NY.. out of the car I get and say "Good Shabbos" and walked to Shul. It was a priceless moment and we still laugh about it..talk about timing..
Some people are always looking for the silver lining; others are always looking for the cloud. There's no one way to proceed with a more-or-less stranger that will please them all, or offend them all. If we could all, no matter where we stand, stop parsing each other's words and facial expressions for lurking insults, the world would be a much better place. The gardener who wishes you Good Shabbos could even be a knowledgeable non-Jew.
I love @miriambyk's comments above. It's spot-on as to the motivation behind a great many non-halakhically-approved Shabbat activities chosen by non-O Jews. I really wish more O Jews could see things that way; on the other hand, I understand that it's pretty much impossible to do so if you sincerely believe that my relaxing in the afternoon with a crossword puzzle is preventing Moshiach from returning.
I hope I come close to living up to this standard; I know I don't always. I'm afraid I cannot muster a single positive thought about the black-hatted guy who deliberately lowered his shoulder and body-checked me off the sidewalk in the Old City (walking with my family, hair covered, long sleeves, calf-length skirt) but I try not to lump anyone else in with him!
Welcome to OOTOB, bratschegirl, and thanks for your thoughts.
I so agree with you that we need to stop parsing each others' words. But I wish to help everyone be more sensitive to the fact that others just might be parsing theirs, wrong though it may be.
Since you're the second person on the thread to be behind that way of thinking, maybe I'm wrong that it's uncommon. It's certainly an eye-opening perspective for me.
As far as Mashiach, any Jew who's Orthodox enough to believe in and care about Mashiach should be primarily concerned with perfecting his/her behavior. Clearly chucking people off the sidewalk isn't among such perfecting!
Would an O Jew really think that–about the messiah not coming because of the crossword puzzle?
I don't. I worry more about Mashiach's arrival being inhibited when I see people fighting and hurting each other, not speaking to each other, or when prominent Jews get carted off to jail for embarrassing crimes. What I learned (and continue to learn) is that the temple was destroyed due to baseless hatred, and that we cannot earn a new temple until we fix that sin. Clearly, we ain't there just yet (except on my blog :).
I'll go on record as the third person in this thread (I think, although it's possible that my counting stinks) to say that we choose Shabbat activities based on an analysis of what will feel special, or restful, or increase positive interaction time as a family (i.e. not be rushing the kids to hurry up and get somewhere.) It has nothing to do with what is halachically shabbosdik behaviour, and yet it is a way that we choose to mark Shabbat. I have one friend who calls it being "Zocher shabbos" instead of "Shomer Shabbos." And yes, it's not uncommon.
Learn something new every day.
I made that comment based on my upbringing. I grew up in a Conservative family that spent Shabbat on family outings – no errands, no household chores, but shul in the morning and "family adventures" in the afternoon. Might be a park, a museum, hiking, or a picnic with friends. As a teen I became Shomeret Shabbat, with my parents' full understanding and acceptance. My father, like Sweetcrunchyjewy's friend, refers to himself as Zachor Shabbat in contrast to me being Shomer Shabbat. Even now, maintaining a halachic Shabbat, it is important to me that my children recognize it as family time – the day I am not too rushed to read a story, or have family round robin backgammon tournaments. All friends are always welcome, and the focus is on relaxing and being together.
As to the comment about Moshiach staying away because of a crossword puzzle, that really strikes home. When I was a kid, attending a community day school (the only Jewish school in a small town, trying to meet everyone's needs) I was good friends with the Orthodox girls, even though I was Conservative. One day one of my O friends made a comment about Moshiach would come as soon as everyone kept Shabbos fully, and so I needed to start keeping Shabbos fully right away. She implied it was all my fault that the world was not yet perfect (or so it felt to my 10 y.o. self). I looked at her, dumbfounded and stung, and said "but even if I keep Shabbos this week, there is NO WAY my grandparents would ever do it." Of course, she couldn't comprehend that my bacon-eating grandparents even considered themselves Jewish. I'd like to think that my classmate's views of Moshiach have matured over time, but I have no way to know.
The idea that 'we' non-O Jews are keeping the messiah from coming–it is very foreign to me, but in a certain way if that is part of O belief, then that would help me to understand why O Jews would harbor deep enmity toward non-O Jews. I don't truly 'understand' it, but I can see how, if you really believe this, how could you NOT be very angry toward non-O Jews.
Any Jew who's observant enough to buy into the messiah thing is fully aware that the failings of the observant world are at least as culpable for his delayed arrival as anyone else's.
Enmity? Do you really feel that Orthodox Jews harbor deep enmity toward non-Orthodox Jews? Judgment – I hear it. Looking down upon – yeah, it happens. Hatred?? Wow. I so don't see it that way. I see hatred coming much more from the non-Orthodox side toward the Orthodox…
I overstated, sorry. First, I didn't mean hatred. I meant more like you said it–judgment, disdain. Plus maybe some of that disdain and judgment is tied up with a real anger that non-Os are holding up the messiah. So that WOULD mean enmity, maybe with a small 'e'. And I meant that I could understand why O Jews MIGHT feel animosity in that case.
I don't know any O Jews, so I have no first-hand evidence. No one on this blog seems this way. Out in the J-blogosphere there is a lot of animosity, but that's also true for EVERY corner of the blogosphere, so I don't take that as strong evidence for anything.
Hatred from non-O toward O Jews? Good question. Worth some introspection and looking around on my part. I'd love to hear what other non-Os think about that. In my own worlds, bitterness or enmity toward O Jews comes mostly from problems with what are perceived as sexism (which you have discussed at length); or O Zionism seen as racism. There are certainly 'how weird and old-fashioned and arcane' judgments, or eye-rolling (my mother's reaction). And there are also maybe some who feel a certain pride toward the O Jews–like they are the 'placeholders' of something that the non-O Jews are not themselves doing but are happy someone out there is doing. But these are just impressions.
Also I would be interested to hear more about how O Jews here on the blog or in general experience and think about that belief that the messiah is really coming, a person, and then all will be different and well.
I think Ruchi's thoughts on the Moshiach would be a great future blogpost!
Against my better judgment I will blog about the messiah 🙂
SBW: If I really had to stop and think about are non-Orthodox Jews holding up the messiah (in addition to ourselves holding him up, that is), I would have to honestly answer yes, but through no fault of their own. No, us Orthodox Jews are not tied up in this mindset. And I don't believe it plays any significant part in the strained relationships between the denominations.
As far as enmity from the non-Orthodox side, I would probably best term it as hostility or animosity, resentment, disdain, and sometimes disgust.
Pride… now that's nice.
Now it's my turn to be surprised: Do you really get animosity and hostility from non-O Jews? I can see the kind of irritated eye-rolling my mother does–which is more like you might do toward some part of the family whom you find extreme, idiosyncratic, and difficult–but they are still part of the family and in fact if they weren't there would be no eye-rolling because it would just be some stranger doing things that seem odd. But animosity? Maybe like you said above, judgment, as in, "why do they have to be so extreme and complicated?" But animosity?
Resentment, yes, but in my limited experience that is a result of feeling judged and disdained by the O Jews. It's a lot of intricate dynamics.
My non-Orthodox friends tell me some of the reactions and comments they get from friends/relatives. I personally get non-verbal cues sometimes, but nothing outright. Except in Israel. There, I've experienced outright repulsion.
I smell a post coming…
anonymous, I couldn't agree more with your question above. It's one I've thought about a lot. And Ruchi, I look forward to reading the blog post on it!
I say "Good Shabbos/Shabbat Shalom" to any Jew I know, regardless of how they spend their Saturday. To everyone else I simple say "hello/good morning/hi…" whatever. But then again I live in a neighbor with people who are not Jewish and people who are of every level of observant Jewish–all of which are generally nice people and we say hello regardless of it being Shabbos or not. Why save being polite to only one day a week? If you want good relationships with your neighbors, you gotta be a good neighbor.
Something else I think is important–if you say hello because you're a generally nice person people will respond in like. If you say hello because in your mind you think they will think you're a nice person (and even perhaps want to come visit shul!) they will likely feel that and not be so friendly. Nobody wants to be "tricked" into being observant by niceties, ykwim? So why not just be who you are?
To your first point, of course, but Shabbat carries with it the fear of judgment.
To your second point, YES! This is exactly what I meant by the verse about our hearts reflecting. What you really think emits outward. It just does.