The Background:
A couple of weeks ago, a speaker by the name of Yael Kaisman came to Cleveland to speak to the women of the Orthodox community. Her theme was “illusions” and she spoke with a lot of candor and humor about how we live with certain illusions that steer us wrong. One of the “illusions” she spoke about was teens and fashion.
As a teacher, she travels in various Orthodox circles. She said once that the Modern Orthodox girls that she teaches are “afraid” to look too “religious” – they don’t want anyone to mistake them for “Bais Yaakov” girls. So she got to thinking: what are the Bais Yaakov girls afraid of?
She asked her “Bais Yaakov” students: what are you afraid of, when you get dressed – whom don’t you want to look like? The answer? “We don’t want people to think we’re Chassidish.”
Well, Mrs. Kaisman teaches at a Chassidic seminary, so she asked the girls: What are YOU afraid of? “We don’t want to look like Satmar (considered the most extreme).”
I found this all fascinating and funny in an ironic and even sad way. One, we’re all afraid of something, and two, all these religious girls were afraid of looking TOO RELIGIOUS! Well, it got me thinking. What is everyone else afraid of? So I conducted an entirely unscientific, unadjusted, non-random poll on Facebook, and here’s what people responded. My challenge? Conduct your own. Post your results below. Or just answer: what are you afraid of?
The Question:
Fill in the blanks:
Sometimes in my Judaism I am afraid that people will think I am too ______(religious, lax, dowdy, unintelligent, add your own).
Because of this I am careful with how I ________ (speak, dress, socialize, add you own).
In general, I feel _________(proud, sad, scared, secure, add you own) with this reality.
The Answers:
Emily: 1) lax/unlearned/careless–it’s kinda all running together with that first blank. 2) speak 3) annoyed
Skylar: heretical
because I don’t want to be “frum [religious] enough” like they are (since why
WOULDN’T you want to take on every chumrah [stringency]?!) / socialize? / angry and
divisive
Rivki: unapproachable/speak and act/burdened, but not in a bad way
Wendy: religious, speak and dress, sad and strange
Lila: “gullible,” “use G-d language,” “mystified by”
Chris: dogmatic, communicate, sensitive
Marty: extreme and hypocritical
Leora: close-minded….when clearly frum women can be the most open-minded, witty individuals out there…
Alex: Unobservant; write; ok, as in my heart I know Im doing my best/what’s right for me
Skylar: Another
one: too politically liberal (since orthodox Jews are supposed to be
Republicans/neo-Cons, right?) / speak and who I share my real opinions
with / delegitimized and like I can’t speak honestly without being
treated like a traitor, idiot, someone who hates Israel, or is not a
“real” orthodox Jew (since I come from a non-Jewish background and/or
have advanced degrees).
Anonymous: On
one hand, in one community- sometimes I feel too UNOBSERVANT in my
Judaism. Because of this I am careful with how I dress and speak. In
general, I feel happy yet hypocritical with this reality– It feels
right, but it’s not where I am 100% of the time. I don’t feel that I
can or need to explain my life story to everyone I meet, but so it is…
On
the other hand (cue Tevya), in another community, I often feel TOO
observant. Because of this I am careful with how I interact with them
and also in how I act, lest I give them a reason to think me as being
someone who “thinks they’re better”- which is not the case. In general,
that leaves me sad.. and confused.. and wholly INsecure.
Judaism I am afraid that people will think I am too self
assured.
Because of this I am careful with how I communicate.
Anonymous: Sometimes in my Judaism I am afraid that people will think I am too “heretical/not frum enough.” Because of this I am careful with how I “dress and speak.” In general, I feel “insecure and angry” with this reality.
Here’s mine: Sometimes in my Judaism I am afraid people will think I am too dowdy or frumpy. Because of this I am careful to walk that very fine line including both fashion and my religious values of modesty. In general I feel OK with this reality, but wonder if I am really being judged or assessed that way, or if it’s more my overactive imagination.
And now… what are you afraid of?
I'd be interested to know how many of these fears stem from a bad experience in which the person felt judged. What an essential reminder to keep an open mind and judge favorably so that we don't cause others long-lasting harm and be the root of interference in their relationship with Hashem.
1. Sometimes in my Judaism I am afraid that people will pigeonhole me in whatever way suits their own views.
2. Because of this I am careful in how I present myself Jewishly, depending on context, to try not to give them a way to fit me into their pigeonhole.
3. In general I feel unfree and confused with this reality.
Mrs. Kaisman is an amazing speaker!
This is very interesting, Ruchi. What's most fascinating about it is that in my Conservative household, I'd say my daughter has the opposite concern: that of appearing too trampy or inappropriate. Or, let's say maybe my husband and I have been concerned about this and it finally seeped into her. Of course, not all girls feel this way. But the point is that it's the exact opposite spectrum – letting clothes express something about who they are without sending the wrong opposite-of-Orthodox message.
I was wondering myself why the Orthodox kids were unilaterally afraid of appearing "too" religious. I'm still not sure.
Sometimes in my Judaism I am afraid that people will think that I don't know enough
Because of this I am careful with what I say and how I dress (because if I dress too frum I don't want people to think that I know a lot more than I actually do)
In general, I feel annoyed with this reality.
Is there something about Judaism or Jewish practice that evokes all these conflicted feelings?
Is it because there are a lot of prescriptions for everyday life that makes it this way? Some variants of Christianity seem to have "just believe" as the only real prescription, and so degree of observance and worldly differences aren't perceivable.
Good question, sbw! I really don't know. I'm going to tag some of my christian friends on Facebook to see if they can weigh in.
Christianity does place a much higher priority on belief first, and there's no one standard of action like you have with halacha. In Christianity, it's much more…flexible, maybe? We're told "love God, love others" as the only real "law". BUT. You will also find a lot of similar problems because people have certain expectations of what other Christians should/should not do. In some branches of Christianity, drinking alcohol is considered a no-no, so someone in that situation might answer your questions as follows:
Sometimes in my [Christianity] I am afraid that people will think I am [not faithful enough]. Because of this I am careful [to not drink alcohol]. In general, I feel [scared people will find out I like it and sometimes have a glass of wine].
We could fill in the blanks with anything that a particular Christian group might consider "worldly" (and this will vary from group to group". It's probably more similar to your…what's the word? Minhag? Something that's not a law but everyone does anyway because that's the accepted norm inn a community?)
I was actually talking with a Jewish friend about something semi-related the other day. I mentioned how Christians love love love to talk about "relationship" with God, yet we don't have set practices so it's up to the individual how that relationship develops (and there is some benefit to that, but for me it's sometimes not good because I am lazy about things like prayer). But you have all these ways where God is infused in your life through halacha –and yet many Christians will often think that is legalistic! (But then they come up with their own ways of being legalistic and don't see it…go figure).
Now, even though we do tend to lean towards "just believe", there can be a whole bunch of problems that come along with that too. Often, Christians will be scared of doubting or questioning because they are taught that they only need to have faith the "size of a mustard seed". Well, sometimes even that seems impossible and often people will feel that church is the last place they can express those doubts. So they'll go through the motions and "observance" of regular church attendance but inwardly are afraid of someone finding out that they are really questioning everything they have been taught to believe. So, yes, it's "just believe", but even that can come with strings attached–if you believe, then you better do X,Y,Z.. It can be especially difficult if one has, say, liberal political leanings yet lives in a place where most people are very conservative politically, because then faith & conservative political ideas get all mixed up together, so the liberal person might then be afraid of showing those types of beliefs because they are outside the cultural norms and expectations.
Honestly, I could go on and on about this…but I've probably said enough already! Hopefully it all makes sense, as I am writing it before my morning coffee has really taken effect.
Sounds like these insecurities and criticisms are human weaknesses and not intrinsic to any belief system.
And a separate question: My (ultra-Reform) mother rolled her eyes at the Orthodox for being "so complicated", but do Os roll their eyes at other Os for the same reason–like, "they make things more complicated than they need to"?
Are Os (or Cs) who are afraid of looking "too religious" afraid that people think they observe excessive rules, or (I suspect this is more the case) are they afraid of being identified with the wrong group per se–implying that there is something not good about that group. Which is pretty ironic from the point of view of someone way outside the O spectrum.
in response to your first paragraph, yes! And it's a shame. I don't understand why people can't view it more tolerantly.
I think religious people are already "afraid" that people think they're crazy. So please, can they not think I'm more crazy than they already do. To "us" those differences seem large and important (back to the narcissism of small differences). To "outsiders" as you say, they're laughably minuscule.
I agree with you about the reason for the eye-rolling, but I think it's also because they're afraid they'll be expected to become more extreme themselves if the practice (whatever it may be) catches on.
Wow, that is so interesting! So in a way Os (let's call them group A) rolling their eyes at more observant (or whatever we want to call it) Os (group B) is also a way to try to MAKE that B's observance stay marginal within A's own sub-world of O. Like to stay alert to how it is "too complicated and ridiculous" to hold off any thought within A-world that "hey that would be a good idea".
Ruchi: Haven't you, however, referred to how Os are SUPPOSED to differentiate themselves from other people, one reason for the different clothes (e.g. hats in hot weather)? So is the idea to be "different . . . but not too different"?
I'm afraid frum Jews will dismiss me as uneducated and secular because I'm not (currently) frum. Because of this I try to speak and present myself in a way that shows my "knowledge."
Not sure this is really a frum issue. Even though it was 20 years ago, high school doesn't seem like such a long time ago to me. I went to a girls highschool (english grammar school, not a frum school, there were only 4 jews in the school) I remember very clearly the demarcations of the various groups all based on dress: the "cool" kids, the "hard" kids, the "nerdy" kids and many others, everybody judged everyone right away how they fit into one group or another based on how they dressed, and below grade 12 we're talking about even with a uniform!!! I don't think the frum world is so much different, and adults are just teenagers who are 20 years out of date.
What your post does bring out though, is that most of us do have some insecurities around how we're perceived, and this I think is probably a function of the fact that whilst we easily group and pigeonhole others — because we focus more on externalities, when it comes to ourselves, we understand ourselves from the inside, we see the complexities and do not want to be squeezed into a pigeonhole. It just so happens that with Judaism, because of the halachic system there are a lot of externalities that it is easy to take as markers of religiousity "does she wear a sheitel/pants/stockings/black stockings/only ponytails" but at the root of it all I think it's a human issue not a Jewish one per se.
I agree that not wanting to be identified with "the other group/s" is human and not Jewish. But I am wondering nonetheless about the specific ways it comes out in the Jewish context.
The most ironic aspect, to me, of Ruchi's post is that some people are worried about looking TOO observant, or too extreme (if I'm understanding it correctly). That doesn't seem like it would work in the Christian context that Kelly describes. Most people within a value system of any kind that is shared with others (e.g. high school coolness) are worried about looking not "x" ENOUGH. But concern about looking TOO much like whatever is for that group the ultimate value seems odd (hard to understand). For instance, I have never worried about looking too cool! Or too pretty! (Although I have worried that I look like I am "trying to hard to look pretty", and no one wants to look like they are "trying to look like they are cool".)
Why would some Os (or Cs) worry that they look "more observant"? Or is it not at all about observant, but about "looking like that other group"? Is this a group-identity issue masquerading as an observant-spectrum issue?
I don't know if I would agree with that. Would vegans be "afraid" of seeming "too extreme" in their veganism? Would crunchy baby-wearers be "afraid" of seeming too weird in their attachment parenting? I would venture yes.
Well, certainly some Bais Yaskiv girls would be afraid of looking too "modern". I remember a controversial thread on a post- seminary girl's blog a few years ago in which she stood firm in her refusal to wear a short-sleeve top over a long- sleeve shell because it was a modern look… even though she agreed it was halachicly OK.
I feel (for once) uniquely qualified to answer your question, Ruchi, because I live in a haven for vegans and crunchy baby-wearers, and in fact I do NOT find that they are worried about seeming too weird. *I* would worry about it but they don't! It seems an endless spectrum of "more observance" on the crunchy scale. But maybe I'm not far into it enough to know.
Still thinking about the baby-wearing vegans. Maybe (and any of you out there feel free to dispute this) there is a kind of endless "bad conscience" going on there that would mean that there is no "outer edge" of veganism that might seem "too weird".
So for instance: one vegan won't eat any animal-derived material or wear animal-derived clothes (like silk, they kill the worms in the making). She meets another, "stricter" vegan who won't buy clothes from a store that even sells any silk items. In my neighborhood of many vegans, the first vegan would admire, not disdain the second vegan. The second vegan meets a third vegan who only makes his own clothes because only then can he be sure that the whole process doesn't somehow abuse animals (like cows pulling plows? I can't think of an example). The second vegan would admire that in the third vegan.
I think there is a utopianism among the vegan/crunchies that means that what might seem like "even more weird" is instead seen as "even more embodying the principles that would make a happy planet". There is even a vision of the "most pure" that would encompass the whole planet–all vegan, all shared wealth, all harmonious. It's utopian but that vision exists.
With Judaism, though, I'm not sure. Do Os have the idea that "everyone just needs to do only what we do [regarding all the rules], and no more, and then everything would be as it should be"?
This is a messy comment, sorry.
SBW, that hasn't been my experience. There are plenty of vegetarians who think that being vegan is overdoing it. Or vegans who will think that those who only eat apples that have naturally fallen off a tree (I don't remember how they are called ) are just plain crazy.
And on a completely unrelated note (but food issues made me think of it): is pork assur to eat, or are pigs forbidden in any form, let's say in clothing? Can Os wear pig-leather shoes?
You have both in Judaism as well. Some people consider everyone stricter than they are fanatics, while others admire them and say, "I'm not on that level."
This post has me thinking so much about different things. W has a point about there being different kinds of veg'ns. But I guess I meant that "one-principle" people have it easier and can have a continuum to infinity. Like if your ONE main principle is "don't hurt animals", then you would have to have more respect for people who go further on that spectrum. And I know a lot of people who live a kind of endless guilt for not being "environmental enough", even when they are doing a pretty good job given our urban situation. So for me the endless spectrum of "observance" of that kind is tied to an endlessly guilty conscience. Whereas for Os who think that "more observant" actually is "too much", there is no guilty conscience nagging at them to do more.
But the Judaism part here is really what is so interesting. Based on what Kelly says about Christianity being less "obvious" and infused into everyday visible rituals, I do think that the multiple, possibly conflicting principles and little everyday rules in Judaism make for more identity issues around outward appearance and visible practice. Maybe Islam is similar, because there are visible signs of different levels or styles of observance.
Ok, here's a weird idea. Maybe this makes for a more "social" world of Judaism than of Christianity, because you pay attention to your appearance to others, to how you are placed with respect to others' observance. You do seem to need a community to do all the observance (like 10 men) so maybe this is tied to having a certain anxiety around appearance.
I'm trying to think of this conflict and anxiety around Jewish-appearance in positive terms, it must serve some POSITIVE purpose? (Analogy: Sociobiologists have speculated that gossip has an evolutionary function of enforcing community standards and thereby reducing conflict. Which doesn't mean it is "good" but that it served some positive purpose.)
sorry for my delay in responding. All my kids are home for the weekend is all I have to say! I once read this book called the liberal something or other (don't worry, there are only like 13,000 results on Amazon but I can't remember the title). It was a hilarious account of a nice (Jewish) suburban mom who was trying her best to be liberal and socially as well as environmentally conscious. She pretty much recounts how each of her concerns clashes with another (use cloth diapers, waste more water) and continually questions how far she should or can take any particular concern. It really make me laugh out loud, because I kept thinking of Jewish law, and how certain things are delineated for you.
But how far to the extreme are you ALLOWED TO or even should you take it? For some issues, there is guidance right in halacha itself (don't give more than 20% to charity). For some, it's a matter of following a particular community or rabbi for individual guidance as to whether something is too stringent – either just for you, based on where you're at, or in general as a matter of philosophy.
Also, in terms of a social world, I think that's true, but I would add another factor that, to my mind, contributes even more to this: those who observe Shabbos strictly (don't drive) must live in close proximity to shul. This means all of us live in community near each other. Ok, not all, but most. This means there is always an Orthodox neighborhood, usually within a square mile or so. That's very social.
One more thought. When I see Jews who are more stringent than me, I always try to give it a positive spin. Unless I think their actions are dangerous or anti-Torah. I am not afraid that Chassidim being more insular than me will somehow make me more insular. I admire them for their guts and strength, even if I am not living that way, nor do I feel I should. I also want my kids to admire those who are more religious, without feeling guilty or bad for not being them or like them.
I would love if Jews who are more liberal than me could apply the same philosophy.
When I'm dressed extra modestly to attend certain synagogues or functions I'm afraid of coming off inauthentic or like I'm trying to be something I'm not.
Nina, I have a number of friends who share your feelings – but, exactly.
If you do it out of respect for the occasion, place, or people around you, there's nothing inauthentic about it. It's the real, authentic you showing respect.
Question: When going to an O event/venue/family, how much effort should one go to to conform to their standards (and I am pretty sure there are standards I don't even know about)? Is it better to be "authentic" and to wear your own clothes, or to respectully (which is also authentic) try for a modest-ish look (my own attempt in the very few times I have been in that situation)? Is it ok to mention the non-Jewish holidays we celebrate with the non-Jewish husband, or better to avoid all mention of that [in order to not evoke negative judgments, or to make others uncomfortable with realizing they are talking to someone way outside their own sphere–if I'm right about that]? Park further away, I have heard here, is good if it is Shabbat.
The pigeonholing problem can come up in these contexts: I don't want to look like the total know-nothing secular Jew, even though I pretty much am that. I don't want to look like a variant of, or wannabe, O (although I figure there are things I'm doing "wrong" that would mean I couldn't pass for it even if I wanted to). I don't even know what "dressing like me" is anymore because pretty much I do try to 'fit in' to context if it is reasonable and possible given my wardrobe.
It is so appreciated when people dress respectfully to my culture. That would include a higher neckline (crew neck), legs covered, and longer sleeves. Some Orthodox families would be totally chilled with you discussing non-Jewish holidays, others would be more uncomfy with it. Some might not care for themselves, but wouldn't want their kids in on it. Me personally, I don't care all that much, but I so appreciate it when people try to be careful just in case.
Don't worry about looking like a wannabe. You will be looking like a respectful and sensitive person, just as if you would be visiting someone of any faith that is not Judaism.
I love this post (I also happen to love Yael Kaisman…she sometimes speaks for Tiferes, which I'm a long-term member of).
It's interesting to me that so many people are afraid to look more "extreme" than they perceive themselves to be (defined differently for different people, as you pointed out). But I do think that it can work in the other direction, especially for people who are newer to a group (newly religious, and so on). Such people can be afraid to not look "religious" (whatever that means) enough–hence the guy who goes out an buys a black hat or a velvet yarmulke before he really understands the halachos of Shabbos, and so on. Or the Modern Orthodox woman who works at a Chareidi school and maintains a separate wardrobe so she'll fit in at the school.
What do you think?
I've seen this, and it irks me. A kid who we know who just started keeping Shabbos bought a black hat. My husband and I were really disappointed. But the MO woman dressing for the Chareidi school I view as just a professional dress code. My friend is a therapist at a Chassidish school, and she has her "work clothes." I have no problem with this. When I visit the slightly more "right wing" neighborhood where my family members live, I try to be slightly more conservative in my dress too. I also try not to be annoyed about it 🙂
Ruchi, why were you annoyed that the kid bought a black hat? Is it because he isn't observant enough to REALLY be a black-hatter? Does black hat mean "I am REALLY O" and he hasn't earned it yet? I would think you might be flattered that he really really wants to join your lifestyle (wrong word I know).
I can see that in some contexts, buying the accoutrements ends up putting the cart before the horse–like my daughter wanting to get lots of pretty ballet gear before having her first lesson. Is the black hat the same thing for you?
Annoyed because a black hat is not a requirement. It's a cultural symbol of philosophical buy-in that ought to come in due time, if at all. You can be a good, halacha-observant Jew, without wearing a black hat, and I feel that if I haven't succeeded in conveying that, I don't feel that my message is actually being communicated.
A parallel in my parenting, instead of the ballet example (which is just wasteful, not much more) would be if a child of mine wanted to wear high heels to prove she was a grown-up, if she wasn't doing other mature actions at home (fulfilling responsibilities, budgeting properly). Or overly sophisticated clothing that did not match her true age. I mean, that's kind of a silly parallel, but it's about the outside NOT reflecting the inside. Don't try to be something you're not – even if you WANT to be that – when it's an entirely optional choice, and there are REQUIREMENTS in Judaism that should come first.
Why disappointed? Because he feels the need to conform to the group he wants to join? Or because it implies he ascribes too much importance to the uniform?
OK, my last question came before your answer appeared. But you refer to him as a kid. Bear in mind that young people put a lot of emphasis on clothing and conformity.
Ruchi, I'm so surprised and interested in your annoyance! Yes it's a cultural symbol of philosophical buy-in, but the buy-in is to a philosophy you cherish. Isn't wanting to be part of that community (and hence buying the hat) something you would value? Not criticizing, just interested–you have never as far as I know written about anything that annoys you about people trying to be more observant.
It IS something I cherish but I fully recognize that it's not for everyone and that's fine. Also that even if it is for someone it's a true life commitment that ought to be understood on the inside. Due process.
Rebecca, why do people worry about not looking religious enough, exactly? Is it because they want to identify with the group and don't want the group to see them as outsiders? Is it because they are trying to be a part of the more-religious community or just because they don't want to be perceived in a bad light by that more-religious community? Or is it just trying to be extra-respectful of others in their own environment?
The Mod O woman with a school-appropriate wardrobe isn't maybe the most telling example–because a lot of people have "work clothes" that are not what we would wear in our homes or out with friends.
Ruchi, I love the provocation this post set up. It's my favorite post on here in quite awhile. I'm not sure why it didn't get more comments, because it seems to me a great conversation-starter: it requires introspection as to one's own conflicts and fears, involves Jewish identity and practice, touches on questions of being judged, and all kinds of really discussible things that in my view would be at issue, at least tangentially, for all kinds of Jews (and people in general).
With all due modesty, I also thought it would be a good conversation-starter 🙂
I think the desire to not look religious enough is a sort of wanting to feel that you fit in, measure up. Except instead of measuring in increments of coolness, it's measuring in increments of religiosity/spirituality (not that those two area actually synonyms, just that they may appear to be).
Isn't religiosity here simply a measure of coolness (inversely proportional up to a point)?
Coming back to this to ask: Among Os how does coolness work? Is it even a value at all? Do O teens want to be cool–and what would that be if they are also committed to observing modesty? Is it about gadgets, or different tiny outfit differences within the male 'uniforms' and the female 'modest outfits'? (I remember I wore a uniform in grade school and teeny tiny little variations were what defined some girls as fashionable.)
I appreciated Ruchi's honesty about not wanting to feel dowdy. I guess for grownup women the goal might be more "cute" or "pretty" or "well-dressed". But is there such thing as 'cool' for Os?
Coolness is often (not always) inversely proportional to religiosity. Not that it has to be, but you do often see that dynamic. (Not in *my* case, of course…*cough, cough*) Yup, Orthodox teens wanna be cool. They accessorize their uniforms too. Don't tell, but I'm pretty sure I was wearing a skinny royal blue leather tie with my uniform back in the 80's. Other teens may look down on this "materialistic" or cultually influenced trend.
Sometimes it's within the boundaries of the modesty laws (cool glasses, accessories), and sometimes it flirts with that boundary, or even crosses it.
Oooh, can we see the picture of you in that outfit with the tie?? 🙂
I'll see if I can declassify the documents 🙂