Okay, so I shamelessly stole that awesome title from Azriela Jaffe’s book, and will pay back the favor by linking it here. (Thanks, Azriela.) I haven’t actually read the book but I’ve heard lotsa good things about it.
Neither have I ever dealt with this issue personally, but many of my friends have. The thrust is that when someone decides to keep kosher, or go from “regular kosher” or “kosher style” to strictly kosher, they may be unable (unwilling?) to eat in their families’ and friends’ kitchens. Result? Confusion, perceived judgment, and hurt feelings. IMHO, one of the main issues is that the parties involved become emotionally bogged down and thus unable (unwilling?) to see things objectively.
So, for the purpose of distance and illustration, let’s look at four analogous instances. Ready?
Scenario 1:
My husband is doing a bris. He suggests that the family serve kosher food at the bris to honor the Jewish symbolism of the occasion. They decline. They offer to order him a kosher meal. Or, sometimes, they don’t.
Scenario 2:
We have guests over that are gluten-free. It’s my first experience with gluten-free eating, so I poke around online and ask them for ideas. “Don’t worry,” they say, “don’t put yourself out. There are lots of things our son can eat. Thank you!”
Scenario 3:
My friend tells me an acquaintance invited herself over for Shabbat dinner, and asked what she’d be serving. “Brisket,” she said.
“Oh, sorry, I can’t have that. It’s too fattening.”
Scenario 4:
At a holiday dinner, my mother-in-law brings out a number of dishes, most of which, coincidentally, contain mushrooms. It turns out that her guest is allergic to mushrooms.
Questions:
1. Is it the responsibility of the bris host to order my husband a kosher meal? Is it reasonable for him/her to be offended if my husband can’t eat the “regular” (non-kosher) meal?
2. Is it my responsibility to make sure I have gluten-free food for my guest, or should he/she fill up on GF food prior to coming? Should I be hurt if he/she won’t eat food that I thought, erroneously, was GF?
3. Is this guest rude?
4. Who feels worse: the guest, or my mother-in-law?
What do you think? Have you ever been in any of the above situations?
1) I say yes, they need to give him a meal— without him, there's no bris. That's like not giving a meal to the Rabbi officiating a chassunah (wedding). No reason they should be offended that he can't eat the non kosher meal. He's a Rabbi.
2) yes, it's your responsibility, but you don't need to go overboard. Just make sure there are a few filling items available. For vegetarians, GF, all normal diet types depending on who is coming. We had a vegetarian over for a chicken dinner last week— I didn't change the chicken plan but added a 5 minute vegetarian chili dish and made sure there were salad and baked potatoes too. she was happy.
3) Yes. If you're going to invite yourself (!?!) graciously accept what's being offered or nicely ASK if there can be a healthier option too.
4) Neither did anything wrong. MIL didn't know to ask, and guest didn't assume mushrooms would be prevalent. My husband is allergic to onions and everyone cooks with onions. Sometimes we mention it. If we don't, he eats whatever doesn't have onions and deals just fine.
great questions!
1. Yes. They should offer and if they don't I think your husband can respectfully decline attendance or to find another Rabbi/mohel. If there is no other, than the family should agree. 1 day of catering a kosher meal will not hurt anyone.
2. Yes, it is a hosts responsibility to be aware of any allergies/intolerances and should ask in advance or be told in advance. For a GF intolerance/allergy there is a lot that a guest can eat but the host should be aware of what can or cannot be used. Accommodations for food intolerances are always appreciated.
3. Unless the guest has said in advance that they are on a diet, they should graciously accept the food in front of them. If they have said something in advance and the host is unwilling to buy/cook something else (because they already bought the brisket and it's expensive) the guest should offer to bring an alternative main, a few pieces of chicken which can be shared or for themselves, otherwise perhaps this guest is not the best for the household.
4. No one asked and no one foresaw. As a guest it is the guests responsibility to clearly lay out all allergies in advance. If the host does not know how can they prepare properly?
A story to go along with the above: A couple is invited for a yom tov meal. The food intolerances are clearly explained (along with examples of what the person can and cannot have) and an offer to make food is extended. The hosts say no to the offer of food and give their confirmation of understanding the food restrictions. The guests arrive for the meal and there is nothing the person with the food allergies can eat. Said person ate craisins and almonds for dinner. Yes, this is not a household where the guests will go back too, but are still friends with the hosts. When there are food issues it is imperative that both sides are very clear on what can and cannot be eaten.
Oh my gosh. I'm pleasantly surprised the story you shared did not mess with the friendship.
Hilary – you contradict yourself – in Question 2 you say that it's the host's responsibility to ask about allergies and intolerances and in question 4 you say it's the guest's responsibility…
Gayla, both are true. Both should assume the responsibility.
A better question concerning #1 is – what if the family is certain they keep kosher? But not to the standards of the rabbi/mohel, so he still cannot eat there? They would probably be even more offended.
Yup, that IS a better question. And actually, that's sort of one of the point I was alluding to in my questions. With gluten free/allergies, there's less "judgment" perceived. I KNOW I don't cook GF, nor do I think I should. With kosher, and even "healthy" eating – the emotion most usually kicked in is defensiveness.
1) If, hypothetically, he had specific dietary needs other than kashrus, such as vegan, would they be offended? No. Then his dietary choice would be something "wonderful." If they are offended it stems from annoyance at observance.
However, are they required to get him a meal? I am not sure what the agreement is, but is he being paid for his services? If I am doing a paid job, a meal doesn't have to be a given. And if the family is relatively un-observant, doing a bris for this child is a great opportunity at outreach. Making a fuss about a meal would not endear them to observance. So send him with a bagel and lox to the job.
2) My nephew has celiac disease, and my sister has had this problem. The people make a big fuss and feel bad, but he's a kid, and not a very good eater either. Why should someone drive themselves crazy with GF flours and such for an 8 year old? My sister doesn't expect that. He can eat before or after or have some salad.
3) No way is that right. Don't be a p'chech on someone else's time. I don't like red meat, so I just don't eat it when I go to people. Or I take a small piece and nibble at it if they insist. No need to grandly show how carefully you watch yourself. Stay home, then.
4) Who's to say who should or did feel worse? I'm not in their heads.
Omitting mushrooms is not as complicated as cooking GF, so they could have mentioned something. I'm a big mushroom fan, so I would throw it in anything.
PL, your tone amuses me. You remind me of my daughter. That's a good thing.
1. I agree with you. Frankly, I think everyone makes way too big a deal about food. Just eat some pretzels and get over it.
2. Same. Good for them.
3. Couldn't agree with you more!
4. The reason I asked is that sometimes the host is so offended that the newly-kosher person can't eat in their home, when the newly-kosher person feels just as bad, if not worse.
And yeah, I also love mushrooms.
1) Since a seudat mitzvah (meal to celebrate the bris) usually follows I would say the host should provide the mohel with a kosher meal. IPart of this depends on the relationship between the father and the mohel – are they total strangers and the father hired the mohel specifically for the bris? When I hire people to remodel or clean my kitchen I don't expect them to stay for the meal afterwards.
2) It is the responsibility of the guest to let the host know well in advance of any dietary restrictions, and it is the responsibility of the host to let the guest know well in advance to what level the restrictions will be me. My wife always carries snacks with her when we go out in case she winds up not choosing to eat any food at a meal. As a hostess, before she got sick we used to keep index cards about our guest that included both food restrictions and preferences. Before we had a big meal we would take out the cards and do menu planning based on them. This is admittedly extreme, but my wife is an extreme sort of woman. :>)
3) The guest was rude. The same information could have been presented in a less rude way. For example "Can I ask about the side dishes?" If nothing is acceptable (the meal is cholent for the appetizer, brisket with vegetables cooked in the fat and gravy of the brisket for the side dish, and pareve coconut cake for desert) she could say something like "I'd like to bring a side dish or vegetarian main course. Is that ok?" If the answer is know she should either reschedule the visit, eat small portions of the food, or plan to eat by herself either before the after the real meal. Incidentally, while I suspect you are taking this case from real life, the host seems to not really want the guest to begin with (as based on the comment "the guest invited herself")
4) I have know idea who feels worse. Is that really the relevant measurement in this case?
1. Well, the meal is part of the celebration, unlike your renovators.
2. Wow.
3. You are right that this story really did happen (not to me). I think the interest was lost after the above conversation (understandably). And yes – I agree. Rude guest. Amazing how sometimes it's not what you say/what you can eat – but how you go about it. That was a big part of my point here. Eat, don't eat – it's so much more about being kind, being a mensch, making sure your people still know you love and appreciate them.
4. See my response above to PL.
Ben Yehoshua's question is also apt. My mom has kept kosher (at home) her entire house, but some of our BT relatives won't eat hot food there because she doesn't keep chalav yisrael, Note that they won't eat meat there, not just dairy. This is a classic case where you can work around religious restrictions or let them be a stumbling block. In our cae they come for Thanksgiving dinner every year towards the end of the meal, and she serves them dessert from a bakery they accept, and everyone socialises. It works out ok because everyone works on not hurting or feeling hurt.
What is it with me lately? My mom has kept kosher (at home) her entire life ….
Larry, that's interesting. I thought only Chassidim care if the dishes were used with non-chalav yisrael. The point you make thought is spot on: it works out OK because everyone works on not hurting or feeling hurt.
The issue isn't related directly to Cholov Yisrael – they won't eat meat in the house either. Rather, my relative's stated opinion is that anyone who doesn't keep cholol yisrael is 'insufficiently serious about their kashrus' for him to be willing to rely on them.
I'm going to guess that's either an excuse or they are not asking good advice on how to handle the challenge. I've never heard of that.
It's unfortunate, but it kinda makes sense "le sheetatam". Imagine a situation where someone keeps a "glatt kosher" kitchen, but eats non-kosher outside. How comfortable would you be with them? I have this situation with several of my relatives. Some at least keep "kosher style" outside the home, but not all. I eat at their houses, but the thought is frequently in the back of my mind whether I am doing the right thing. (Obviously, I believe in keeping kosher where ever I go)
I've also had experiences of eating place while wondering if it was really OK. It goes back to balancing values. Value one: kosher. Value two: not hurting the feelings of others. Not a fun tightrope to walk, but those of us that keep strictly kosher simply can't compromise in what we eat. Nor am I willing to knowingly hurt another person.
1) Yes, I believe it's their responsiblity. No, they shouldn't be offended. It would be different if a guest showed up at the bris demanding kosher food when they hadn't had time to plan for any.
2) As someone with food allergies too, I would appreciate if there was food prepared that I would be able to eat. I wouldn't be offended if there were dishes that weren't gluten free so long as a couple were. I think if you invite someone to dinner you should do your best to feed them.
3) No. An allergy can cause serious damage to your health. It's prudent to tell your hosts that you suffer from such and such so you won't have to fear immediate illness during your visit.
4) Both probably feel terrible.
– S.E.
Lately whenever I invite someone I ask: Any food requirements?
Sorry, I misunderstood your third question. Yes, the guest was rude. If they didn't want to eat brisket they should have let you known beforehand. I though your question referred to the glutenfree scenario.
– S.E.
I don't know that it is the *responsibility* of the family to provide a kosher meal for the rabbi, but it is in terms of manners absolutely the right thing to do. I'm not sure how hard it is to get a single kosher meal, if there is something like an airplane-packed lunch or something that people can purchase. At least they could see if there's a way they can offer him a paper plate of something simple like eggs and fruit, don't know if that's kosher enough though. The polite thing to do is to see what it means to make sure he can eat something, and if need be get the airplane lunch. If he politely indicates that they don't need to bother, they can decide who out-polites whom.
Where I live, people are so weird and picky about food–ethical issues, health issues, allergies real and imagined, hocus-pocus 'health' issues, astrology-related restrictions, food snobbery–that I have learned to ask along with the invitation what the food restrictions are. I have also suffered embarrassing restaurant incidents where fellow guests made unreasonable demands of restaurant chefs, with no prior notice to the restaurant of their complicated restrictions.
Our award-winning scenario came from a family we had invited who told us that the father was on the Atkins diet (no noodles, potatoes, rice or carbs); the daughter had major allergies to seafood, dairy, nuts and eggs; and the mother didn't eat meat. It was like a Sudoku.
Question about the bris: I might be a little annoyed if a rabbi I had hired (don't know what the relationship here is, whether it is also a personal one) made suggestions about what I should serve. It would all depend on how he did that suggesting, what tone it took, and whether he meant that I had to use a certain caterer or whether he just meant I shouldn't serve bacon and cheeseburgers (which I wouldn't anyway). If the family is already planning kosher-style food, I can see where they might feel judged and a little bit pushed if the rabbi indicated that that is not 'really' kosher.
Yes, there are definitely airplane foods available. Sometimes he feels silly eating them when everyone else is obviously eating other food, but he's always grateful that someone has thought to go the distance for him.
I am laughing, hard, at your stereo-typical West-coast stuff. I wonder if folks ever think "strictly-kosher" people are in that category ("hocus-pocus…food snobbery…real/imagined").
Your scenario reminds me of one Shabbos where we had some gluten-free friends for dinner, then partial vegans + real vegans together for lunch. Your story is better though – Sudoku, lol. My guests were also super-nice and very low-maintenance so that always helps.
About the bris thing; I know. He feels it is his rabbinic responsibility to at least put the suggestion out there, as something to consider as part of the Jewish occasion. They are obviously free to demur (as many do). He is the nicest guy in town so it generally flies well even if they don't choose to serve kosher. Ironically, it seems that a lot of people are aware that kosher-style is not really kosher.
I can vouch for him being one of the two nicest rabbis in town 😀
RR: I'm laughing! You're sweet. Your hubby is a super-nice guy. No competitions or anything now.
The restaurant story I refer to above is pretty extreme: we go to a fairly fancy restaurant on a busy weekend night. When the waiter comes for our order, one of our companions takes out a small, ratty, piece of paper, hands it to the waiter, and then she says, "This is a list of things my herbalist says I am not to eat. Can you gives this to the cook and have him make up something that I can eat?" It turns out that the list includes beef, chicken, dairy, flour, eggs, cabbage, lemon, onions and pepper (!), among other things as well. I was mortified.
Tomato and cucumber salad, no biggie.
Tomatoes were on the list too. They brought out a dish of rice and plain steamed vegs, which was fine, but on a busy night the cook shouldn't have to pull ideas out of her/his hat.
Oh my gosh. That be bad.
Funny you should title your post as such. I'm reading that book currently.
Now, to your questions:
1) I don't think it's the host family's responsibility to provide a kosher meal even though your husband has made it clear that it SHOULD be kosher. I err on the side of caution and assume rabbis are kosher. Of course, I haven't had any simchas outside of a shul lately, and the girls' baby naming was paid for by my in-laws.
2) My friend has Celiac and when she eats in our home, I try to make sure I have Gluten-free food for her. she always offers to bring her own food, and I always decline. He's had other food allergies/intolerances, and I've tried to accommodate those, too. Knowing in advance that the person has an allergy or intolerance makes it easier to accommodate.
3) Plan and simple, yes. That's rude.
4) As a host, I tend to ask new visitors to my home for a meal whether there are allergies I need to know about. If the person says there are no allergies, I can't be held responsible if they come in and THEN say "Oh, I'm allergic to mushrooms".
I don't believe it's the host's responsibility to ask, but rather the guest's responsibility to let people know s/he has an allergy.
While I would think both host and guest would feel badly, it isn't the host's fault the guest didn't mention an allergy.
Your friend in #2 is what we should all strive toward.
1. I think at the very least if you have a rabbi or mohel at a simcha you should provide them with a kosher meal. There is a mitzvah of taking part in the seudah and they should be accommodated.
2. As a host I always ask about restrictions and allergies and try to be accommodating. I would be upset if someone just showed up and I'd made a big pie, say, as the main dish, only to discover that they didn't eat gluten and hadn't told me because they "didn't want to put me out". I would sooner have made a simple GF dish instead of a pie that no one will eat!
3. I think it partly depends on your host. As a guest, I usually mention that I am vegetarian but offer that I will be very happy to eat challah and side dishes or whatever so they shouldn't go to extra trouble. That way I feel they won't take it personally when I don't eat the main dish.
4. They both feel bad. That's why I always ask and always tell about food restrictions.
But kosher… that's not just like a dietary restriction. It definitely becomes a judgement, partly I think because of all the grades/standards of kosher.
Someone keeps kosher but you know they eat vegetarian in non-kosher restaurants. Do you feel comfortable with their kashrus in the home? What about if you find that they are just very ignorant of many of the complexities of kashrus? Or they use hechsherim (kosher supervision) that you have been told not to rely on? Stringencies like cholov yisroel or yoshon can also complicate things.
It seems to come down to a situation where you have to judge them "how kosher are they". It's not just a simple, do you keep kosher or don't you. In my experience people who don't consider themselves to keep kosher are never bothered by us declining to eat their food or suggesting ways in which our dietary needs can be accommodated (including all our family members). Where we've really had problems is when people do keep kosher to a certain level but not our level. It's impossible to explain that without being/sounding judgemental.
One beautiful story to end: we lived in a small university town. A Chossid from a small sect was visiting from Brooklyn for a conference on chassidic something or other. We were asked to host him. I didn't think he would eat anything at my house but I was hosting other delegates and I served him anyway. (why they asked me to feed these people instead of ordering in airline meals from somewhere was not clear). He ate! Afterwards we couldn't contain our curiosity and we asked him, how come you ate our food? You don't know us. We are clearly not from your community. There is no mashgiach here. Why would you trust our kashrus? His response? "when I am travelling I have a rule, if my host tells me the food is kosher, I believe them".
Is that the solution?
I like this story. I'm curious if other O-Jews find it problematic rather than charming.
I agree that this issue is not at all inflammatory for non-kosher Jews (exception to be described below) when inviting Jews who keep kosher. The one or two times we have had this happen, I tell them how much I'd like to invite them but don't know whether it's possible for them to accept, and then if they are willing to come I follow kosher-style menus to a tee. In terms of 'outreach', BTW, that dinner has been really illuminating to my daughter, who was suddenly very curious about why it was a question whether the person could eat with us and also why the dinner had to be planned for so late on Saturday. And in the case where we had an O guest (or I thought he was O, I don't know how he identifies himself, but given what I read here now I am doubtful of that) we asked him whether we should all say hamotzey, and he indicated that he just quietly mumbles his brachas over each food, and kids were curious and learned a lot about that.
Exception: A few non-practicing friends who have a BT relative get very annoyed. I think this is common. My impression is that this is more an issue, as Ruchi has indicated, of feeling rejected by the relative and experiencing the kosher conflict as a revisitation of bad old family history than it is of having a problem with kosher/Judaism per se. A related observation that I mean in a respectful way although it might sound like I'm generalizing about BTs in a negative way: the few people I know who have become more observant actually really do seem to me to have a lot of family baggage and have seemed to me to use 'becoming more observant' as a way to one-up or reject or diss their relatives. Is this a problem with my small 'study' sample or is it an issue among BTs in general? Actually it is my experience across the spectrum, even a relative of mine who became more devotedly Reform seems to me to have a 'rebellious' side to that decision. Again, I am not questioning the sincerity of any BTs and not even the few I'm referring to, just wondering how much in fact the increasing observance might be part of trying to differentiate oneself from one's family.
I think 'assume it is kosher if your host tells you it is' is an excellent guideline and a poor rule. I've had people tell me they keep kosher, and subsequently say "Well, I don't keep kosher by your standards". In one case they kept ingredient kosher (i.e, read the label and if no obvious treif ingredients it was ok to eat). Another friend of mine kept kosher, except, he said, that kosher meat was 'a racket' so he just bought regular supermarket beef and chicken.
To take an extreme case, I heard a radio call in show where a woman was talking about having observant relatives over for Thanksgiving. She told them that she had bought a kosher chicken but actually served them chicken from Boston Market (a treif restaurant chain.) The show's hosts were appalled and tried to convince her she had done a bad thing, but she kept repeating 'they all said they loved the chicken, and what they don't know won't hurt them.' I got a less relaxed about trusting people's word about kashrut after hearing that show.
I find the story both charming and problematic, to Larry's point. Regarding BTs and their families… I do not know. I would be interested to hear the BTs on the thread chime in.
The difference between keeping kosher and all of the other scenarios mentioned (allergies, preference for a healthy meal or no red meat etc.) is that is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to make your kosher guests a meal (or cook them anything) in your non-kosher (or not kosher enough) kitchen. This is why it seems so "extreme" to people who do not keep kosher, because providing someone with kosher food in a non kosher kitchen is much much more difficult than say not cooking with mushrooms.
For me, the most awkward thing would be if a strict kosher person wouldn't eat in a less strict kosher persons home. Ruchi- is there a certain test you (or other Orthodox people) use before eating in someones kitchen (as opposed to just asking them questions about their dishes, food etc.)? I've heard from some people that they will only eat in other peoples homes who keep Shabbos, and that way is how they trust their degree of Kosher.
Checking whether they are shomer shabbat or not, and then simply accepting their kashrut if they are is in fact the approach of the Rema in the Shulchan Aruch. Unfortunately few people in my experience actually use that.
Thanks, Larry. You seem to suggest that in theory just checking if someone was Shomer Shabbos would work, but not in practice. Even within Orthodoxy there does seem to be debate/difference of opinions in terms of whats acceptable on Shabbos (sports and swimming are the two that come to mind). So, for example do you think a person in a more right wing orthodox community wouldn't eat in a more left wing community even if both families were Shomer Shabbos? Also, do other things besides Shabbos enter into the equation like what kind of yamulke a man wears, whether the family watches TV, if the wife covers her hair or wears pants etc etc.
There is a lot of room for personal variation here. As mentioned above, one of my BT relatives won't eat in the home of anyone who doesn't keep chalav yisrael.
We've had quite of a few chassidic and yeshivish people eat in our house – we usually ask in advance about what heckshers they will eat. Most people are willing to be accommodated – we've occasionally been told we're too obsessed with the topic and to relax and our guests will just eat what we put out, On the other hand, we ran a Sheva Bracha buffet where a guest came over and thanked us – he said he almost always just eats desserts at these things, but the fact that we had labelled each dish not only with the ingredients but with the heckshers meant that he ate a full meal.
I've never heard even in a story people saying I won't eat in your home because of your kippah or the fact that a woman wears pants. I suspect most people who feel that way don't socialise across those boundaries at all.
SomethingSweet and OOTOB Fan,
You both mention, correctly, that kosher is different, and much more of a minefield. I agree. I've also seen those with allergies or vegans "cheat" but I can't think of any instance where someone keeping kosher would "cheat" (or maybe they would just hide it very well from me!).
Here are my thoughts:
The rule is, and we tell people this up-front when we help them kasher their home, is that you need to be shomer shabbos for me to eat in your home. That is a technical requirement for a "mashgiach" – someone who certifies food for someone else. If you are not Shabbos observant, you can't be a mashgiach because halacha doesn't dictate your life.
If we kasher someone's home and they never ask questions afterward ("my dairy fork fell in the meat sink, what do I do?") it makes us wonder if the kosher status is maintained. The questions area sign of maintenance.
If someone is shomer shabbos, we believe them that their food is kosher.
Frankly, it is rarely an issue because having 7 kids cures you of invitations.
What if someone is returning to/starting observance? What if, for whatever reason, maintaining a kosher home make more sense for them and their path to Judaism at this point than keeping Shabbat? Not that they're not working up to it, just that they're not there yet. What if your rabbi says you need the special Shabbat toothbrush and their rabbi says eh, just get a sparkly one?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can see someone keeping kashrut perfectly and not being shomer shabbat. I can see the same in reverse. If it's not a loudly professed permanent situation ("I will ONLY keep kashrut… s'long Shabbat, sucka!"), what do you recommend or do in those situations?
I'm moving in with The Boy soon. I'm trying to decide how I could possibly bring this topic (keeping kosher in home) up given my rah rah Judaism and his meh religious Judaism. Right now I'm kosher style, living at home with non-Jewish parents. They compromise, I compromise. It's not ideal for either. But this is the first opportunity I have to keep kosher as I would want in my own place. He's lactose intolerant, which would make things easier, and he grew up in a kosher-esque home. He MIGHT be willing to agree to this.
But keeping Shabbat? Over his dead body.
Hi again,
I've missed you!
Of course people should travel the path and take on the mitzvot that they feel they can handle. However, just as I understand and respect their individual journey, I hope they will understand that according to halacha I can't eat their food. That doesn't make it unkosher. It might be very kosher. It's a technicality in halacha that is there for our protection.
Often (usually?), the two (not keeping Shabbos fully and having slightly relaxed standards in kosher observance) do go hand-in-hand. Do you think that's true? Are you an exception?
Ruchi, thanks for answering my question. If someone is becoming observant and you kasher their home first before their Shomer Shabbos and then one year later they become fully Shomer Shabbos, in order for you to eat in it, would you need to re-kasher the kitchen?
If they've been asking questions and I get the feeling the kosher status is maintained, then no. If not, I might ask them how the kosher stuff is going, do they want to be set up with a study-buddy to stay current on the laws etc. If they say no, I would honestly wonder what to do about eating in that home. But very rarely does a home need to be re-kashered.
I love what you said about having 7 kids cures you of invites…… we invite families with 3 or fewer children. It's all we can handle right now. One of our kids doesn't do well with a crowd in his own home. He hates crowds anywhere, but his home is where he lets loose with mega tantrums and if he feels crowded in in HIS space, WATCH OUT— he's a biter. So we don't have guests very often and a lot of our friends have 6, 7, 8 kids……we'll go to their homes and if our son is overwhelmed we take him outside for a walk. we feel badly that we're takers more than givers in the meal invite situation and are hoping it's temporary. I'd been wondering if families of 6, 7, 8 kids go out for meals much……
It's interesting. Not much, but I understand. Truthfully, my teens do not enjoy going to people they don't know well, so it's fine. And my guests are really very gracious. They always bring something along and sometimes even send a hand-written thank you, which is so, so nice. There are those special families that insist on hosting us back, order in kosher and serve on disposables, and really, that warms my heart, they are willing to do whatever it takes to reciprocate.
Ruchi, I wrote about this once upon a time, and I've just dug it up and posted it on my blog.
I think everyone is spot on that it's often an issue of feeling judged, rather than one of practicalities. Yes, it takes a bit of extra time to prepare kosher food in foil pans with single-use utensils, but that extra time is more than made up for when I can just push all the paper plates and plastic cutlery into the garbage!
As someone who has certain kashrut standards in the kitchen, I'm often faced with the dilemma of whether to allow other people – people with whom I'm very close – to bring cooked food to my house. Do I say yes, and serve it on paper? Do I say yes, as long as it's kosher-style and cold, and serve it on my plates? Even in this position, I'm afraid of giving offense. Keeping kosher is a decision we've made, but we certainly don't feel that all of our Jewish friends and family need to be where we are observance-wise.
But as soon as you take emotion out of the equation, the only questions (in my mind) are "how much do we want to share this meal together?" and "what can we do to make that happen?"
Gah! I forgot to answer your questions? Here I go:
1. Since it's a seudat mitzvah, I think the hosts need to make sure that the rabbi/mohel can eat something that would fulfil the mitzvah. Whether that's an airplane meal or a bagel with cream cheese, I do think that religiously they're obligated. Being offended because a rabbi won't eat non-kosher food… let's say that it blows my mind, and leave it at that.
2. These days, when everybody seems to have dietary restrictions of one kind or another, I always ask when they accept my invitation: "do you guys have any food allergies or restrictions? Any severe dislikes?" It makes me happy to see my guests enjoying the food, and I get a bit sad if they can't, so I take it upon myself to make sure I understand their restrictions ahead of time. If I'm not completely sure whether what I'm planning is appropriate, I'll actually tell them what's on the menu and ask whether it's okay or whether I need to change something.
That being said, a friend of mine who is vegan and gluten-free just offers up front to bring a specific dish (and makes sure it's something that's filling enough to be her entire meal.) It's a very nice, undemanding solution that I think is appropriate when the guest's restrictions are extreme.
3. Yes, that guest is rude. And frankly (here comes my judgy side,) if she can't eat anything fattening at all, ever, that's a pretty pathetic diet. I'm trying to lose weight right now (and succeeding.) There are two polite ways to deal with the situation. One is to take a very small portion of the brisket, enjoy it thoroughly, and fill up on vegetables; The other is to offer to bring a dish, and make it something that I can eat with impunity. Neither solution requires the guest to pass judgment on the nutritional value of the host's food.
4. I think they both feel bad, but the guest is probably more accustomed (and resigned/adjusted) to the situation. The host most likely feels embarrassed and unhappy that she's made food that her guest can't enjoy with everyone else.
"how much do we want to share this meal together?" and "what can we do to make that happen?" I just love that.
#1. To be clear, no one has ever been offended if he didn't partake of their non-kosher meal. I threw that in there as an emotion-less case of person-can't-eat-my-food-but-why-would-that-offend-me. He has learned not to rely on eating at a bris unless the hosts are thoughtful up-front and offer.
What people have no way of knowing (and he would never tell them) is that a mohel is not supposed to eat a full meal on the day of a bris (until the bris itself), and while brisses in the observant community are usually first thing in the morning, in the non-observant community they are more often later in the day. Which means when he shows up at a bris he hasn't eaten much that day. Tra la! It's a good way to stay fit. That, and walking seven miles to a bris on Shabbat.
#2. That's exactly how I feel, and what I do.
#3. Yup! And good for you. Try the bris diet.
#4. Good point. Hadn't thought of it like that.
Thanks for weighing in! (no pun intended)
I didn't know that. No wonder the mohel was reluctant to do N's bris in the evening (we just figured we'd take advantage of it being a long, long day, and avoid the 5 a.m. wake-up.) Thanks for teaching me something new (yet again!)
Ruchi, why can the mohel not eat a full meal before the bris?
I need to clarify:
Ideally, a bris should be done as early in the day as possible, due to the teaching that mitzvot should be done with joy and energy, and not be delayed. So the 8th day is the right day to do it, and as soon as possible, to show excitement for the mitzvah. Obviously that's not always practical. That may have been reason for your mohel's reluctance, SCJ, or maybe the reason was that the bris must be performed during the day and not after nightfall, or maybe he just had a schedule conflict.
The not eating thing: I just re-asked my husband. He said he's not sure where/when he learned this, but just as a person should pray the morning prayers (shacharit) before sitting down to a full meal, he doesn't want to sit down to a full meal before performing this very big mitzvah of bris. But, he said, it's certainly not law, and possibly not even custom. He's never discussed it with other mohels, so maybe it's just his own personal way to show esteem for the mitzvah.
But he also told me that if a bris is late in the afternoon (like dinnertime) he doesn't wait that long.
So much for the Bris Diet.
here is ANOTHER long-winded answer for ya! 🙂
1–I can't say about the bris–I would think if he charges for this (I assume he does) than that should be in his contract if he expects it. My husband used to do wedding photography (he took a hiatus) and in his contract was that they had to have a hot meal served. Why? because during a sometimes 12 hours day all they would serve him was a cold sandwich and chips. And of course there is no leaving the wedding for meals–you could miss something important!
2–I am celiac (as are my kids) and it's not a food preference, it's an autoimmune disease. My son is also allergic to dairy, cashews and fructose (as am I). As the allergies are anaphylactic, I have to be SERIOUSLY diligent about making sure nothing has any of those ingredients. That said, when we are invited to people's homes I let them know I appreciate it, but that with our very strict diet I would never expect anyone to even try and accommodate us. That gives them a very easy way out. (And truth me told, I DON'T trust most people with these VERY serious dietary issues, so it gives me a way of politely declining the invite.) Usually I suggest another form of get-together. Maybe a park trip, or dessert… etc. Something easier to be diligent on. However, occasionally someone will get to know us and really want to have us over–generally people who love to cook. And they will be well-educated on these matters and so I trust them. I usually offer to bring at least one dish just to make sure that there is in fact at least one thing we can eat just in case they totally flake and forget not to use wheat flour or something in a recipe.
That said, I think when you invite someone it is your duty to make sure you are capable of accommodating their needs or to make other arrangements (like eating by them). When you except an invite, you need to make sure they fully understand your restrictions before assuming they want that burden.
For me eating GF is every day life–I don't have to think hard about it. but it's really hard for someone not used to it! When I have to cook nut-free for a family we know I am all thrown off! I made something with almond milk and almost served it to him before I realized I had used almond milk! Scared the daylights outta me!
Another point: there is NO point in inviting someone to dinner and hoping they are happy with a salad or a veggie when everyone else is going to eating a FULL meal. If you can't accommodate them, just be upfront about it.
3-I think they could use a little more tact about it. Like offer to bring a nice big pasta salad? No reason to EVER be rude like that.
4–both people feel bad, but you move on. It's happen to me before. I don't think it's anyone's fault. But as a rule I ALWAYS explain allergies before so nobody is embarrassed (or hungry!)
Hi!
#1. You're right! People often don't think of feeding their workers. He doesn't have a contract tho. It's pretty chilled. The arrangement, not the food.
#2. While reading through your response (and I'm sorry you guys have to deal with that) something occurred to me. When someone invites me over, and I know they can't accommodate my kosher needs, I feel apologetic. When someone can't accommodate you, it's like your letting them off the hook. Does that work? Could that attitude be applied to kosher, do you think?
*you're letting them off the hook.
I don't see why not… I guess it would depend on the situation. You could blame it on the kosher food being expensive–so many kids being too many to feed so you never expect other people to host you.
I have family I have to do this with ALL of the time. Usually (b/c they aren't Jewish and do not get kashrus whatsoever) I blame it on allergies, which is also true. Sometimes I blame it on time issues–like that we are busy during that time of day, but we could go get some Rita's later (if it's not a holiday) or something like that. Sometimes I feed us beforehand and say we ate already but would love to come hang out. Sometimes we just eat something bagged like chips or a banana etc… if it's a casual event like a picnic–and nobody really notices.
I don't think you ever need to be rude… there is usually somehow to gracefully let them off the hook or bow out. I've done it more times than I can possibly even remember!
Hm. What an interesting psychological twist.
I love these questions and everyone's comments.
Not much to add, except to say, I think the hostess always feels worse than the guest in any scenario. Embarrassment/shame is perhaps the worst feeling of all. Worse than feeling a little hungry during one meal.
Shut up and eat whatever your host puts in front of you, then say its delicious even if it makes you want to puke. Or else bring your own food and explain to your host before hand that this is what you intend to do (this will probably seem strange, and cause offense, if the host wishes to retract the invitation at this point they are perfectly entitled to). When you're a guest in somebody else's house, you have to play by their rules.
Your advice stinks!
Human beings have always used the sharing of food as a means of bonding. Of course others will feel hurt if you are unwilling to share food from their kitchens, especially when they are willing to make accommodations such as cooking vegetarian. Does it make sense to use religion in a way that separates people? What is religion for? How will the Ultimate’s name become One?