Way back when I first started this blog, I wrote a post called “The 10 Things I Want My Shabbat Guests to Know.” At over 10,000 views, it’s my second-most widely read post, and probably at least once a week someone finds my blog by searching Rabbi Google with anxious queries about being invited to Shabbat dinners and not knowing what to do/say/wear. Of course you can just ask your hosts, but if you don’t feel comfortable doing so, this may be useful.
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| Photo credit: Hallie Abrams |
So here’s a follow-up post about what to bring when you’re invited to an Orthodox (or any) Shabbat dinner.
1. A Shabbos-friendly toy or game for the kids, where applicable. To me this is your best bet because you win over the parents and kids in one fell swoop AND ensure that the kids will play happily while the adults linger and chat.
* For kids ages 0-3, any non-electric toy or game, like a doll or simple stacking blocks.
* For kids ages 4-7, we love games for Shabbos like:
Jenga
Magnatiles (these are pricier)
Perplexus
(also great for older kids).
* For older kids, we find these to be timeless:
Backgammon
Card games
Othello
Bananagrams
Risk
2. You can also bring something new for the home – again, non-electric. New hand towels, a nice salad bowl or plate, a vase.
3. I’d say the last option I’d try is food. You just don’t know what the family’s kosher situation is unless you ask them. You’d have to have a pretty good understanding of kosher, and be familiar with your kosher options where you live. If you do go with food, make sure it is both kosher and pareve (containing neither meat nor dairy) with a reliable kosher symbol.
4. Flowers are tricky since they can’t be placed in water after sundown – it’s one of the Shabbat rules that Orthodox people follow. So either bring them before sundown, or bring them in a vase.
5. Kosher wine is also a nice option.
What are your ideas and suggestions?
If you are bringing wine, make sure that on the label the word 'mevushal' appears. (usually near the kosher certification.)
We had a friend in Australia who sold handwashing towels (that had the blessing for washing hands on them). When we first moved into our current community we would bring one as a Shabbos gift.
Hand towels are a nice idea because they need to replaced every now and then.
what does Mevushal mean/represent?
Best-selling new books from a local Jewish book store.
That's a GREAT idea.
If you arrive after Shabbos with a bottle of kosher wine, and you drove there in a car, does that make the wine unkosher? Same for kosher baked goods that you got at a kosher bakery . . .
Nope. Cooking on Shabbat makes the food unusuable for shabbat-observant people, but driving on Shabbat wouldn't change the status of the prepared food or drink.
Ideally, things for use on Shabbat shouldn't be driven over on Shabbat. If they mistakenly are, they can probably still be used.
Probably? These are the kind of questions where I'm interested in the actual halacha, not what "feels right" to people.
I was just trying to simplify. So the halacha is: if someone violates shabbos by mistake (driving over some food – mistake meaning they don't know it's wrong), others are allowed to use it on Shabbos – but it's not ideal. We were advised by our Rabbi that we should ask people to drop off contributions to the meal prior to Shabbos. We don't explain why. Maybe people will assume we want to plate everything in advance. However, if we forget, feel awkward about it, or it just doesn't happen, we can use it if the guests will feel bad or it will cause social tension.
Possibly other rabbis would counsel differently – I don't know.
Sorry. Just can't get around all these laws. None of it makes sense to me when I think about the fact that there were no cars when the Torah was given to us. The Torah was pretty straightforward and for scholars to make their laws, ordinances is just ridiculous. Last I heard, the cars in rabbinical times just wouldn't start on Shabbos. Driving wine over in a car? How ridiculous!
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Paper napkins are nice! Or playing cards! Or bringing a good discussion question to the table. Also nice tea/instant coffee (pretty easy to get a good heksher or doesn't even need). I have wondered if there's a problem with a salad bowl etc because you can't exactly use them on shabbat because it's untoiveled. Had a friend in this situation and she wondered if it was even mukzeh. Don't know if there's an answer about this…
You could always bring a wooden salad bowl.
Bowls can be used for decorative purposes too, so no problem there. But wood is a neat way to sidestep the issue.
What's the issue with wood?
Utensils built by or bought from a nonJew, even brand new itdms, require immersion in a mikveh if they are made of glass or metal. Wood and plastic don't require this toveling step. China doesn't need toveling but a lot of people do it anyway.
I'd be hesitant to bring a game because you don't know what the people already have.
I thought of that, but usually we're missing at least one piece so it's still exciting to get a new one! Or we can regift it…
Another caveat — if you bring food, make sure it is still in its original, sealed package. On the other hand, if you bring anything other than food/wine, your hosts will not be able to open the packaging on Shabbat. No gift wrap, and if you want them to actually use a book or game right away (as Ruchi suggests), make sure it is fully opened, including all bags inside containing parts, cards are punched out of cardboard, etc.
I never knew that about flowers!!! That explains something that happened to me about 5 years ago. Funny. I thought she hated my flowers!
Fairly common misunderstanding, actually. I intentionally have an opaque vase that I can put flowers in — without water — if a guest brings me flowers on Shabbat. The guest doesn't know that I haven't added water, and doesn't think I'm ignoring the gift.
Great solution, Miriam. I just always feel bad when the flowers that they spent time and money on wilt… not because they'll ever know, but still. Welcome back Becca!
Why can't flowers be put in water at Shabbat? Is is considered akin to planting?
W, I have the same question. They aren't "alive" anymore so water doesn't help them "grow"? I mean, aren't cut flowers by definition dead? Or "brain dead" as far as flowers go (Do Os believe in "brain death"?).
Yes, but you're keeping them alive longer by putting them in water, and that's not OK. Ahhh… brain death. Another post 😉
And hypothetically, would it be OK for a non-O guest to arrive with flowers, you give them an empty vase, they fill it with water and put the flowers in it? Would there be a difference if the guest is a non-observant Jew vs a gentile?
Are cut flowers still alive?
W, that would not be OK if the guest were Jewish. I can't actively enable/encourage a Jew to do something that is not allowed on Shabbat. If it were a gentile, I could allow him/her to do it if he/she initiated it, but not ask them to do it for me. (The concept of a "shabbos goy" – having a non-Jew do your stuff on Shabbos – has been highly overused due to ignorance.)
And SBW, only because I know how to google and NOT because I am anything close to knowing about plants, here:
http://www.gardenguides.com/75644-cut-flowers-stay-alive.html
A couple of weeks ago at a Shabbos meal an FFB lady whom I respect greatly tried to tell me that it's HALACHA (not chumrah but halacha) that we can't eat a meal (which includes bread) with non Jews. I asked my husband to ask a shayloh of our Rav but he has not yet done so. We've been BT for a while and have NOT heard this one— we've had non Jews for Shabbos meals plenty of times (though not for Pesach sedarim). Your thoughts on this one? — confused BT
Not true. It is not halacha. I don't know what it is.
My husband says you shouldn't have non-Jews at a seder. I don't know his source, whether it's halacha or just a custom, but it caused some aggravation with his mother a"h 30 years ago when she wanted to invite her intermarried nephew.
I am non- Jewish and have been invited to Seders….as a matter of fact in college, the Interfaith Org. on campus encouraged.
If I remember what I learned correctly, I believe that the issue is specific to Yom Tov and not Shabbat. It is forbidden to cook for a Non-Jew on Yom Tov. I don't know the specific source, but I remember this because my best friend is a giyuret (convert) and before she converted formally, she had to verbally "aquire" any food that she was going to eat at a Jew's house over Yom Tov.
Cooking for holidays on the holiday is a dispensation that exists for Jews only, so you can't actively cook for a non-Jew only on the holiday. However, there are plenty of socially-appropriate workarounds for this that wouldn't require your guest knowing anything about it. Tesyaa, that is interesting about the seder, and first I'm hearing of it.
A non Jew cannot eat from the korban pesach. Therefore the matzah, which represents this at the seder, is also forbidden (not all matzah but specifically the one you hold up and make the bracha on in motzi matzah), so between this, the problem of cooking for non Jews on Yom Tov and problems of non-mevushal wine (some people will only use this on pesach), having non-jews at the seder = lots of problems but none of them insurmountable if there are overriding issues concerned like in the case of someone in the process of converting or delicate family issues.
Ruchi might not want this to go this way, but I have to admit that I fluctuate between a charmed-and-fascinated-ethnographer-outsider attitude and wondering "come on, this is such nit-picking, do you really have to make this hairsplitting distinctions and who cares anyway?"
Do Os, believing ones, ever get a wave of that feeling–like, "Oh dear, so now, ugh, let's make sure the non-Jew doesn't get the platter's matzah and that, oyvey, some non-Jew cuts or cooks or does whatever to the raw food so that I can stick to the letter of the law, I can't believe I have to do this, and too bad those lovely flowers are going to wilt because God doesn't want me to put them in water" and so on? Or maybe that is a more appropriate question to a BT, actually.
No, it might actually be a more appropriate question for an FFB (frum from birth), who didn't actively, consciously choose this. The internal eye-rolling would be reflective of the person's true attitude toward his faith. Sure, there are people that think that way. Whether they verbalize out loud is another question. Even if I felt frustrated with all the laws, and of course I sometimes too, I am careful not to kvetch aloud. Firstly, I'm not proud of these thoughts, and I want to be bigger than that. Second, it makes it more real by saying it aloud. Third, I wouldn't want to drag anyone else down with my sour attitude.
I'm sure people feel that way sometimes, although in my believing days, I rarely did. It wasn't any of those nitpicky things that sowed the seeds of my nonbelief. (Of course, once the seeds were sown, it was a different story.) There are a lot of leniencies for some of those things, so if something really bothers you, a rabbi may allow you to rely on a leniency. (Ashkenazi Jews eat food cooked by a non-Jew as long as a Jew turns on the oven; there are many leniencies related to avoiding embarrassing another person; etc).
For most people, these are just things you do. You don't fight city hall, why would you? And there are definitely people get a lot of joy out of the strictures, especially BTs. The structure of the strictures (?) is what a lot of people are searching for. For others, it's just something that comes with the package. My good friend at seminary told me that in the early days of becoming frum, she was listening to a rabbi teach about the correct way to open a can of tuna on Shabbos (surprisingly, there is a particular way, and there is a particular way to mash it, too), and she thought to herself that "this religion is just too weird for me". But I guess the entire package was more enticing than the annoyance of the nitpicky details, because to this day she is a truly frum believer.
SBW, I'm obviously not an O-Jew, but I imagine that once those thoughts start nagging you, than it's pretty much over? I remember an Israeli series in which a lapsed O girl says that one day she just stopped believing that Gd really cares how she handles her toilet paper during Shabbat. It seems to me that this lifestyle has so many precise rules, that you just can't follow them if you don't believe in higher purpose. Just my guess though.
W, based on my comment above, I don't think it's accurate that annoyance with picky rules generally leads to nonobservance. It's likely someone in that situation will make more of an effort to understand the laws of muktzeh and melacha, or reach out to a rabbinical advisor for help with these thoughts. It's highly unlikely that a person questioning picky rules will move on to questioning his/her entire faith. Orthodox Judaism is a package deal, as I indicated in my previous comment, and usually the attractive parts of the package outweigh the true annoyances. For a BT – there's usually a reason they chose to be a BT. For a typical FFB, the annoying rules are just the way things are, like the sky being blue. Their family is frum, their friends are frum, they all follow the picky rules, and unless something occurs which upsets their relationship with their family or their community, they're not going to suddenly give up their faith over not putting flowers in water.
tesyaa, at the time I wrote my comment yours wasn't online yet, so I hadn't had a chance to read it. Obviously, the precise rules are not a deal-breaker for FFB and BTs, and I understand they may even be welcome.
But what you say is interesting, because I imagined that those who left Orthodoxy (or turned away from becoming BT) would do so precisely because of the multitude of minute rules, and – metaphorically – having a hard time believing that the way to handle toilet paper has any importance. If not this, then how does it happen?
W, the detailed laws of toilet-paper handling and all the others are directly or indirectly from the Talmud (and to believers, by extension from Sinai itself). So if a person accepts the basis of Orthodox Judaism, there are certainly logical underpinnings to almost all of the detailed rules. I think the social and emotional aspects of religion are more important as to whether a person stays or leaves than the intellectual reasons.
You could look at it two ways.
You could say that all the nitpicky details are an unfortunate side-product that goes along with an O life and it's a package deal so you're lumped with it.
Or you could see it in terms of how G-d is in the details as much as in the big picture. Most of us intuitively feel that if there is a G-d, then he really cares how I treat my parents, speak to my kids, give to the poor. Where an observant lifestyle differs from a more general concept of "just being a good person" is precisely in this meticulous rule-bound kind of living. It's easy to be cynical and think that it takes away from the pure goodness of leading an ethical life. Here I am upsetting all my non Jewish seder guests by telling them they can't eat this matzah but only that matzah and I can't go to my friends funeral because it's in a church, whatever.
But rather than seeing it as a downside, I see the rule-boundness as the real beauty of Judaism:
It shows me that Hashem cares about every little thing I do, so I have to think about Him at every moment and every single tiny little act, whether its trimming my nails, opening a can of tuna on shabbos, tearing a strip of toilet paper gives me a chance to go either upscale or downscale spiritually depending on how I act.
Of course a lot of it can be done by rote too but then the choice becomes am I going to do this act in a G-d-conscious way or by rote? Also it's easy to focus entirely on halacha as if it is an end in itself at the expense of the feelings of people around you, this is also misguided and a non-ideal approach to religion, G-d and His laws may be perfect, those carrying them out may not be so perfect. The balance is very tricky to find, that's why we need Ravs and teachers to help us understand our own personalities and where our weaknesses are.
The rule-bound nature of Judaism also shows me that if there are myriad rules for seemingly morally insignicant things, then serving Hashem, doing His will, must be about more, much, much more than just doing whatever feels right to me. It means that I have to learn and study and ask questions constantly to make sure that I fully understand what is expected of me in life, and not just be content with "Well, I'm a pretty nice person and don't mean any harm so I reckon that's enough".
It means that from the earliest age, observant children are being raised to curtail the immediate gratification of their impulses as they think "is this kosher?" "what's the bracha?" "is it muktzeh?". So that hopefully when they get older it will be easier for them to hold their tongue when they're about to say something mean to a friend or give money to charity that they were hoping to spend for themselves. We're keeping our self-control muscle in shape all day long.
The self control benefits are really great, IMO, but do they really carry over? Look at all the observant people who are very careful about hechsherim but still eat unhealthy diets, or overeat or smoke. No judgment, just saying that self control in one area doeasn't imply self control in other areas.
SomethingSweet, I really like your explanation about keeping the "self-control muscle" in shape, and I see how the minutiae of the Orthodox life can contribute do that.
I'll admit that my immediate reaction was "but constant self-restraint must be exhausting, there must be a time to let your hair down!". But then I realized that I don't feel restrained that I'm not to hit someone who's been rude to me, or to not take something away from someone just because I want to have it. And I spend no time questioning those boundaries/rules – so I assume that once you've internalized the O rules, you can feel comfortable within them.
But now I feel I have to ask: HOW do you open a can of tuna on Shabbat?!?
Something Sweet, you should start a blog 🙂 tesyaa, it's a good question, and one I wonder about often. I think the thing is this. It DOES strengthen the self-control muscle – it has to – but only in areas that the person considers important. The reason religious people might smoke or eat unhealthy food but wouldn't touch a cheeseburger is not that they don't possess self-control, but only in areas that they KNOW it's entirely off limits. A religious two-year-old will stop whining the second you tell him the candy he wants isn't kosher, but senses when you're more wishy-washy about your "no."
I don't actually know. I'm still fleshing this one out in my mind. Maybe a future post.
W: you can't create a usable container on Shabbat, so you have to pierce the can from the bottom, then open the can halfway and remove the contents. Basically, you're destroying the can in the process.
So this has nothing to do with tuna per se or the fact that it is fish?
Correct, any can. But a lot of people mash tuna with mayonnaise, and you can't do that the normal way, with a fork, on Shabbos because it might be "kneading" (which is forbidden). But you can do it by a different method than usual (a shinui), so you can mash it with your hands, for example, if you don't mind your hands smelling like tuna and mayonnaise. So if you'd like a tuna sandwich on Shabbos afternoon, you might want to remember to mash it before Shabbos starts.
but isn't there a thing that you can do things that would otherwise be forbidden because this is the normal way of eating?
I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to, but sometimes it depends whether you are preparing in advance (in which case there's less leniency) or if you are preparing the item right before it is to be eaten.
I also forgot to mention that when draining the tuna can, you lift the tuna out of the liquid (separating the desirable item from the undesirable), rather than the other way around. You can't drain the liquid off first; rather, you remove the desirable tuna from the undesirable liquid.
This is SO fascinating! But the liquid is "desirable" to my dog when I pour it over her food, so is it MY OWN desire that determines what is desirable or is "desirability" more broadly or metaphysically construed?
It's just determined by the purpose you're using it for at that particular time. If you're preparing your dog's food and want to give her the juice, the juice would be the "desirable" object.
Back to the original question about non-Jews… I am a giyoret (female orthodox convert), and ate at both Shabbat and Seder tables with Orthodox families before my conversion – and even before I was officially into the conversion process (e.g. just 'exploring'). More than one of these families included a husband who was a rabbi. Your friend may have a specific psak from an outlying rav that it's not okay, but that opinion does NOT follow the majority, at least in my (big, major American city) community.
I work at Mulholland and Sachs, a gift shop in Cleveland, so here are some of our best suggestions (in addition to Ruchi's!): nice soap and a soap dish, hand soap and lotion for the kitchen, a small pretty bowl and spoon or knife that can be used for dips or nuts in the future, a simple picture frame with a note inside the glass saying "thanks for having us" which can be removed so that a picture can be placed inside, note paper and a pen for grocery lists etc., a cute book of quotes or photographs, games like Quiddler or Anomia. I don't know if there are specific rules about soaps and lotions – I will leave that to Ruchi to answer.
All nice ideas. Soaps and lotions may not be used on Shabbos (liquid soap may) so it should be brought before sundown.
So what was used on Shabbat before liquid soap was invented?
I guess plain water?
Is it somehow understood/expected that the gifts should be immediately usable? Would you think it inconsiderate if someone brought a scented soap bar, because you can only start using 25 hours later? (I can imagine kids would be frustrated to get a new toy they aren't immediately allowed to play with, but I meant more the adult stuff mentioned in different comments)
The problem with the soap is not that the recipient has to wait 25 hours to use it, but they can't pick it up, move it, or even accept it as a gift once Shabbos has started. The adult won't be frustrated, per se, but it's an awkward situation.
How so? You are not allowed to handle things that are not permitted for use on Shabbat? Does it mean that since writing is not allowed, you can't touch a pencil, even to push it aside?
Right. You can't handle things that are not permitted for use on Shabbat. Which means you can touch them, but not move them. The laws are actually more complex than that (you can't use scissors in general, but you can use them for a permissible purpose) but I don't want to confuse you.
Please, do confuse me! 🙂
Actually, you could write a post about preparing for Shabbat – up until now I thought it mostly consisted of cooking and taping light switches (and tearing toilet paper), but now I'm realizing it's probably a much more involved process – if many household items become forbidden, and you can't handle them, then now I'm imagining you have to clean quite thoroughly before Shabbat begins?
The main preparations are cooking and cleaning, and the cleaning is really because we like to live in clean surroundings. Slobs are allowed to be slobs. Sure, you have to take a quick look around and clear away things that you can't move on Shabbat, but that only takes a few minutes at most. And you can usually move them on Shabbat if you need the space where they are. So if you accidentally left your computer on the kitchen counter, and you want to use that area of the counter, you can take it off.
Just as an illustration, I once accidentally forgot to bake two loaves of challah and only discovered this on Shabbat. Since raw bread dough is generally considered inedible, it is unusable on Shabbat (since it can only be made edible by a forbidden act), so ordinarily it can't be moved. But because it would have been nice to have that part of the counter for use on Shabbat, I was able to put the dough into the refrigerator for baking after Shabbat. (Unfortunately, it turned out to have sat around too long and was no good.) Afterwards I told the story to a friend and she said she likes eating raw bread dough. So if she had been there, it wouldn't have been unusable and I would have been able to move it whether or not I needed the space.
I generally prefer not to get "stuff" — no room for it. Dessert is best (especially *simple* desserts that my kids will enjoy, like pareve chocolate or chocolate cake). Wine is ok too, although we're not such big wine drinkers, so we don't always open it at the meal. Also, I prefer that people not bring something too expensive. I try to make simple and delicious meals, but I feel uncomfortable if the guest's gift cost as much as the meal.
I usually prefer not to get "stuff" — no room for it. Dessert is best, especially *simple* desserts that my kids will enjoy (chocolate bar, chocolate cake, choc chip cookies 🙂 ). Wine is also a nice gift, although we're not such big wine drinkers and often don't immediately open the bottle that was brought. Also, I don't like to get expensive gifts. I try to prepare simple and delicious meals, and feel uncomfortable when the gift costs as much as the meal. I love when people bring an interesting Dvar Torah or a great new melody for a song, and when they relate to my kids like people. We invite all kinds, but there are certainly guests my kids prefer.
Ilana, you brought up a good point, which I should have prefaced this whole post with. I don't need my guests to bring ANYTHING. In fact, when I first started hosting I would tell people "don't bring anything," hoping to alleviate them of the anxiety of trying to work around all the rules mentioned above! Then I realized people really wanted to. It made them feel good, like even if they couldn't bring their own home-cooked food they could still be a part of the evening's meal.
I sometimes have guests bring uncut fruit like pineapple, cantaloupe, watermelon and grapes. I also like to suggest pareve ice creams and I name the brand and flavors to avoid hechsher problems.
Good one. I don't like being busy cutting up fruit, though.
Love this post and the original is for sure a highlight. I saw talk of a blog move. True?
Thanks Nina! Good changes coming to the blog. It's my next post, so keep your eyes open on Monday.
It's been too long since I've been around these parts. Catching up. This post made me think immediately of a certain skit at a WIK conference several years ago!! 🙂
To avoid all these issues & to help the community in which you are being hosted, we suggest making a donation to the charity of the hosts' choice after Shabbat. This works out really well for all involved, & even lowers one's taxes! Just let your host know that in lieu of a house gift you would like to honor them with a donation. They will likely be overjoyed to receive such a thoughtful gesture & have a preferred charity that could surely use a donation of any amount. The husband probably already brought flowers for his wife & the wine they most enjoy. Go with a donation after Shabbat ends & you can't miss!! B'Hatzlacha!!
Wow, what an original idea! I would've never thought of that.
Wow, what an original idea! I would've never thought of that.
The only lasting argument I ever saw in my father's house was when he told my mother that her best friend could not bring her son's non-Jewish girl friend to the seder. The son brought her anyway and she was not allowed to enter the door. There was almost a physical fight. Years later he explained to me that in the Seder there is a portion that begin "Shfach al ha goyim" and that (1) He could not read it in front of her and (2) it would be disrespectful to her to read it in her presence. Ironically she converted and became far more observant than him, and one of her children became a modern O Rabbi.
On a topic other than Shabbat, when we go to a shiva house that is frum, instead of bringing food, we bring
nicely decorated paper plates and cups. It makes clean up quicker and eliminates hechsher problems.
can u go out to dinner on Shabbat? my mom wants to take my family to dinner, so I'm not going to spend any money just wanted to know if it wasn't ok
A pair of nice shabbat candles. Particularly if they are from Israel.