Dateline: child is 5 years old.
Rabbi, I’d love to come to that class/Shabbat dinner/program/event, but we really can’t. My daughter is in a dance recital/my son is in a basketball tournament. Maybe next time. Hopefully next time. For sure next time!
Dateline: child is a teen.
Rabbi, I’m so distraught. My kids are so disinterested in Judaism. They’re so busy with school and sports, it just really doesn’t mean much to them right now. I worry about their future. What will Judaism mean to them on college campuses?
What we say:
I’m so sorry. Maybe we can meet with him/her? Talk, take a class, a program? Trip to Israel? Birthright?
What we think:
Where were you when your child was 5? If you will prioritize Judaism over dancing and basketball when your child is 5, your child will have a chance at Judaism winning over dancing and basketball as a teen.
Ask yourself this tough question, and really dig deep for the answer:
When your kid is a teen, would you prefer that your kid be a professional dancer? Basketball player? And what are the chances of that happening? Or a professional Jew? One who’s well-trained, proud, and skilled?
Most people whose kids take music and basketball don't expect them to be professionals. They want them to learn the value of teamwork and determination. And honestly, most non-frum parents who get anxiety about their kids going off to college get over it on their own. Many if not most will even come to accept an intermarriage, especially if the non-Jewish partner is not hostile to Judaism. It's a stage in their lives that will pass, probably more due to the stress of their kids leaving the nest than anything else.
I'm uncomfortable with the statement "many if not most Jewish parents will even come to accept an intermarriage…" I can't say if that's true or not, but even if you could back it up with statistics, what is the value in such a harsh statement? If it was the beginning of a discussion about what steps we can take to change such a situation, OK, but otherwise it seems too much like lashon hara on the whole community of non-frum Jewish parents to be worth saying.
Anecdotal, based on family and friends, even those who are pretty into the Jewish community. I don't think it's lashon hara to say that people are accepting (to me, it's a compliment), but that's just me.
Seriously, I admire my relatives who did not cut their children and grandchildren out of their lives.
My point was more that most parents are not going to spend the next 40 years of their lives in anguish that they didn't attend Shabbat dinner instead of a basketball game. Even in the worst-case scenario, they'll probably come to accept things as they are and not beat themselves up over perfectly reasonable decisions they made when their kids were little.
I think my parents' generation accepts their children's intermarriage because they can't do anything about it. My generation is more used to it and might not even see anything wrong with it. But those aren't the people who are getting involved with Ruchi's organization. The people in her organization, I assume, are ones who do mind intermarriage. Sure, they'll accept it if it happens because the alternative is to lose their kids, but they won't be happy about it.
And it's true that they don't expect their kids to become pros, but in some way they have to show that Judaism is a priority for them or their kids will get the message that it isn't. So although there's nothing wrong with skipping a class on rare occasions for a basketball championship, it would be problematic to not take classes at all, say, because your kid's every game is more important.
How do people get involved in Ruchi's organization?
Word of mouth, usually. Friends recommending friends. Or my husband inviting people he meets.
Particpation in the group seems somewhat random, so for some of the people, Judaism may indeed not be a priority in their lives that supersedes basketball. I don't know why they get panicky when their teens are getting ready to go off to college, but it seems more likely to be due to empty nest syndrome or fear of the unknown, rather than a rational assessment that they lived the last 18 years of their lives wrongly.
tesyaa, anecdotal evidence suggests the opposite. Parents are concerned about what their kids will encounter on campus. Especially when their kids are disinterested in Judaism.
Minor usage peeve: not disinterested, uninterested.
Interesting link within the post to the guy who says the parents are the ones too invested in sports. I agree with that. I don't understand the high value that families put on team or individual sports for kids. Yes, sure, fitness, fun, teamwork, persistence. All good. But sports and "hobbies" are the SIDE DISH, in my view, and a lot of families treat them like the main course, an end in themselves. Honestly I feel like it is a form of cultural adolescence. We should spend our main energy on what is important.
I want my kids to put more of their energy into schoolwork. I am not sure how much the persistence of daily sports practice translates into persistence with working through algebra problems, but the algebra is more important so I'd rather start there with persistence training.
So in my own case I guess the question would be, schoolwork or Judaism? And yes for me Judaism is a side dish. It's not the main course. BUT isn't there a way that a side dish or appetizer can have a certain dignity and centrality of its own? Stupid metaphor, but really, to make a whole person there are different possible compositions and should Judaism really be the center? I know Ruchi thinks so. For me that will never be the case. I want my kid to be excellent as a thinker, reader, world citizen, and friend. I believe for Ruchi Judaism would actually enable all of that, but for me it seems a long way around to what are my priorities.
Just wondering: Is reading really a basic value? Don't get me wrong: I love reading. I'm a big bookworm. But isn't it really a means to an end, with the end being the benefits you get from reading beneficial things?
To me the ability to read critically and carefully is a basic value. To be able to read a newspaper article and perceive the interpretations behind the "objectivity"; to read (or hear) a political speech and recognize the manipulations going on; to read even fiction (or see movies) and recognize how the author plays on our fantasies or evokes emotions.
This is a means to the end of being a critical thinker, but it is so much an everyday practice that I value that it has more the feel of an end in itself
Actually, individual (not team) sports have been found to have a positive effect on students' schoolwork. Runners, swimmers, cyclists, gymnasts, etc., tend to have greater self-discipline and time management skills than most other students.
My children were raised in a loving, open Orthodox home. They received 12 years of Orthodox day school education. My parenting philosophy in regard to intermarriage was, quoting a dear friend, to make Judaism so central to their lives that they couldn't fathom sharing their lives with someone who didn't share Judaism.
When my eldest went off to college, a school that was acceptable only because of the strong Chabad presence, my child began an intimate, romantic relationship with a non-Jew. My child is still personally observant — keeping kosher, keeping Shabbat — but rather than seeing a non-Jew as an inappropriate partner, thinks it is great to have a personal "Shabbos Goy" around, happy to help out.
Raising children is never simple. No matter what our priorities are, there comes a day when they get to choose for themselves.
P.S. Short term, I have made it clear this person is not welcome in my home. Long term, if they get married, I will see no choice but to accept my child's decisions.
To: A heartbroken mother. I can understand your grief but by making the romantic interest forbidden you are making it more enticing. One of my dear friends was raised Ortho and has been an atheist for nearly a decade. He won't tell his parents because he knows the reaction would be dramatic. They still think he is observant but they are unaware that he has done the following: had a vasectomy (no kids from first marriage), moved in with girlfriend, became a policeman (despite his law degree) or bought a house. Let them know you love them no matter what or you won't know them at all.
Thanks. I know. I have met the significant other and been pleasant. My only boundary is that this person is not welcome to visit at my home, particularly because my younger children are still in the house. I can only hope that this is a college romance and will fall apart in time. (There are all kinds of other reasons why I don't think this is a good match, as well. Hopefully maturity and wisdom will set in before there are children to worry about.) Thankfully, my child seems to understand that my love is not in jeopardy, and still shares a great deal with me.
heartbroken, I am very sorry for your pain. I completely get that you can do everything "right" and still have your kids lose interest in Judaism, or have other things supersede. That's why I wrote in the original post, "your child will have a chance at Judaism" – but it's no guarantee.
SBW, what's the short way, if there is one? I do actually like your metaphor. Many parents are actually fine with Judaism being a "side dish" but then when their kids decide they don't need it at all… it's not so fine.
There is no short way to helping kids be good readers, citizens, etc. And I believe that for Os probably Judaism encompasses all of those things, or maybe some of them are less important, like citizenship, I don't know. But the O regimen of rules seems to me like a long, circuitous way to the virtues I named.
I can see the problem of wanting Judaism as a side dish but absolutely wanting it on the plate–since you like the metaphor. But that alone doesn't seem to warrant making it the main dish.
If there's no short way, why not Judaism as a long way? 😉
Do you really think (I guess I know you do) that Judaism's every little rule is the best way to make someone (and I guess only Jews) better citizens, better friends, etc.? What about non-Jews needing to be also good citizens and friends–they can do it without following all the rules. I still don't get that, unless it's just (in your view) that Jewish souls flourish more with all those rules.
Jews need every little rule to not only be good citizens, friends, etc, but to also be role models and remember their job to lead and teach. Non-Jews also need the rules, minus the leadership part.
I have a problem with this approach (warning people that they'll regret their current choices in some far-off future) for a few reasons. First of all, based on personal experience. Reverse the scenario. If you had told me when I was becoming religious, "Tesyaa, after the fun and excitement of NCSY have worn off, after you've given birth to 6 kids and you're firmly ensconced in the religious community and you finally have time to breathe, you're going to stop ignoring serious issues with religious belief and wish you weren't doing this" – would I have listened? No way.
Second, I'm against the idea of "scaring people straight", so to speak, by making an exhibit of the Schwartz boy who intermarried or the Rosenthal girl who has multiple piercings and tattoos. Some kids will really lose out socially by giving up dance or basketball. And switching to yeshiva or day school might not really resolve the problem. I don't think a family should upend their life because of what happened to the Schwartz boy. Every family's life is different. And I do personally know families who became frum (or who were already frum and became much frummer) where the children never totally adjusted and grew up and rebelled. Making major life changes with kids past infancy is not for the fainthearted.
On the other hand, not making major life changes when you think they're right teaches your kids to be fainthearted.
tesyaa, my point wasn't to scare anyone but rather to expose the long-term results of short-term behavior. We do this with health and other physical pursuits all the time. And I'm not trying to make an example of anyone else's kids, because it's the SAME parents who are putting other pursuits first who are then disappointed. Your last point is a fair one, but somewhat unrelated, don't you think? Anyway, we all know you can't "make" your kids anything, any more than I can "make" someone Orthodox. You can just give them the best example and exposure – exactly what parents are already doing with academics and sports.
Also, thanks for the grammar tip. I appreciate it.
Are you trying to say "Hey, if you think you're going to care if your child is Jewishly affiliated in 15 years, start acting seriously upon that now"? I have no disagreement with that . The format of the post- what you're saying vs. what you're thinking – must have confused me.
Strangely, I actually had this exact conversation with myself when my child was about 3. Judaism is totally central to my life (despite not being O), but in my case it was kind of a fluke. I was a deep-thinking kid and I took to everything Jewish without any enforcement, as my own choice.
But since I want the Jewish people to continue and I personally desire for my child to remain strongly Jewish, I need to take concrete action to make that more likely. Just like I plan to take concrete action to make it more likely that she will attend college and even graduate school. I plan to take concrete action to make it likely that she will never own a gun. In the future, I hope my child will feel embarrassed if she fails to vote, even in a minor election. I have values. I live those values. I take actions to try to pass on those values.
I think some secular or less religious parents see Judaism as an activity, like gymnastics or baseball. It's part of the activity calendar. If you see Jewish identity as a core value, like participating in our democracy, then it's not on the activity calendar. You design the activity calendar to support the value.
If I said to most Jewish parents, "Should I spend my extra money on the best schools for my kids or should I use it to take a round-the-world food tour for myself?" — they would look at me like I'm nuts. Where are your values? How important can education be to you?
When Jewish parents say to me "I just don't think we'll have time for the high holidays this year because there is a really big X going on", it seems equally crazy to me.
I understand if being Jewish is not important to someone. It's not important to everyone. What confuses me is that most people say, "Being Jewish is important to me and I hope it will mean something to my kids." But unlike education, which is not left to chance, unlike learning French (not left to chance), unlike violin (not left to chance), or chess, or almost anything else that really matters, the outcome of this value is left to chance.
Kids are not stupid. They know who you are by how you live. They know what you value by what you prioritize. They know exactly where Jewish identity falls in your value scheme.
Now — can you or should you force yourself to do things you don't care about because "I want the kids to be Jewish"? No way. Kids can smell BS a mile off. If you think the local Hebrew school is boring, don't send your kids there. Figure out something else.
You have to confront the question of how and why being Jewish is important to you, why it matters to you to pass on. Then you'll know which activities to put on the calendar to support that value.
Thank you for saying it so well.
So if my own relationship to Judaism is deeply ambivalent, and I don't want to try to BS them into being unambivalently Jewish (i.e. I don't want to be a hypocrite), then I should be basically inaugurating my kids into my own ambivalent relationship to it? As in, "Here, we'll do this Seder but I don't really believe it but I want you to know the story and we will definitely skip the four types of children because I hate that part….or we should read it so that you might hate it too."? Or just give them tiny little bits of Judaism that I don't feel ambivalent about (like camp)?
Would I rather induct them into my own ambivalence (which includes a tad of hostility) or keep them out of it? Mostly I'd rather protect them from having the same painful ambivalence I have had.
"We should read it so that you might hate it too"?
That's a bit weird. How about: "I've always been bothered by the next part. What do you guys think?" And then after they answer, you explain what bothers you about it and you can discuss different people's impressions.
DG, I think that's a great approach. But actually, this is a great question for tesyaa. How does she handle this?
I don't handle it very well. My kids already know my views (and we regularly discuss different views of religion), so I try to back off on the special seder night. I wish my husband could meet me in the middle by backing off where he knows things particularly bother me (the chosenness business, for example), but that's not his style. He's not confrontational – just a true believer, and the seder night would not be complete for him without highlighting the very things that stress me out.
What about confronting your ambivalence so that you can figure out what you love and hate more clearly? As kids get older, I think you can be honest with them about your own struggles. Even if you don't believe in a literal exodus from Egypt, it is a central myth of our culture. Is that so bad? I mean, European culture gave us both wonderful art and philosophy and also colonialism and witch burnings. There are no ancient cultures that are 100% aligned with modern life. If they were, they wouldn't be ancient.
I would say, cut yourself and Judaism some slack here. No, the entire culture and religion has not been fine-tuned for you personally because it predates you by a few thousand years. But having been around so long, I find it hard to believe it has nothing useful to you. Engage, consider, adapt, modify. It's not outside of you.